[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Bentley03]

Le Mans 2023 Toyota were beaten fare and square. I perceive they've had a performance disadvantage ever since.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by J Jay

They're no strangers to playing these games, but they've never been subtle about it (e.g. Vasselon's rather-public annual Le Mans complaints), and it is harder to do with more relevant, more even competition. A win in this era would go a long way to demonstrating their prowess. It won't shut up all the detractors, because the obvious (incorrect) criticism would be that they only won "because of BoP," but hopefully it would quell most of the noise.

Touche.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Le Mans 2023 Toyota were beaten fare and square. I perceive they've had a performance disadvantage ever since.

Mmmm we'll agree to differ. I think they managed to fight to the end despite being handed a last minute disadvantage for the sake of a "Story" but I can understand that not everyone would see it that way.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Matador

Looking forward to a hard fought but well deserved win (some of the borderline xenophobic haters will finally have to shut up).

Like it or not, Toyota hasn't won a single Le Mans against factory competition. It doesn't mean at all that they're bad like some try to suggest but that fact can't be denied. This year they'll have another chance to change it tho.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Like it or not, Toyota hasn't won a single Le Mans against factory competition. It doesn't mean at all that they're bad like some try to suggest but that fact can't be denied. This year they'll have another chance to change it tho.

So how many of Audis wins do you want to take away when no one else was there?? Oh, that's not something anyone wants to bring up?? Yeah, thought so

You can only race the teams who want to respect the race and show up. Toyota has and spent millions to keep LM24 from being a club race in the eyes of some, even though that's not what they say it's what they meant in their words

[Matador]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So how many of Audis wins do you want to take away when no one else was there?? Oh, that's not something anyone wants to bring up?? Yeah, thought so

You can only race the teams who want to respect the race and show up. Toyota has and spent millions to keep LM24 from being a club race in the eyes of some, even though that's not what they say it's what they meant in their words

Exactly this. To many the sentiment seems to want to put them "in their place". Shift the goal posts every time.



Never mind the years they lost out to things that had absolutely nothing to do with their performance and prep. An FIA component melting a wiring loom? More gutting to me than 2016 perhaps.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Matador

Mmmm we'll agree to differ. I think they managed to fight to the end despite being handed a last minute disadvantage for the sake of a "Story" but I can understand that not everyone would see it that way.

Point taken, but given that the last minute change was made almost a year ago, they struggled for outright pace then and have never looked capable of controlling a race on pace alone since. Ferrari and Porsche have.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So how many of Audis wins do you want to take away when no one else was there?? Oh, that's not something anyone wants to bring up?? Yeah, thought so

I have no interest in taking away anyone's wins, I fully respect Toyota's commitment to sportscar racing. But still, their competition history against factory opposition isn't glorious. Each time they should have (2016) or could have (2023) won, something just happens what proves that to win Le Mans you need a bit of luck too. And by the way, that internet hate isn't on Toyota only, take a look at places like reddit or even motorsport.com comments section and you'll see

[Matador]

Originally Posted by tomcug

I have no interest in taking away anyone's wins, I fully respect Toyota's commitment to sportscar racing. But still, their competition history against factory opposition isn't glorious. Each time they should have (2016) or could have (2023) won, something just happens what proves that to win Le Mans you need a bit of luck too. And by the way, that internet hate isn't on Toyota only, take a look at places like reddit or even motorsport.com comments section and you'll see

Although I don't agree with your estimation that their "history against factory competition isn't glorious (seriously?)", don't forget 1999, 2014 & 2017. Yes though, Heavy on the "You need a bit of luck too"

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Point taken, but given that the last minute change was made almost a year ago, they struggled for outright pace then and have never looked capable of controlling a race on pace alone since. Ferrari and Porsche have.

So we're saying that their BoP has been disadvantageous since then? lol Not going to argue there, but I feel like Bahrain was pretty convincing.

[TF110]

Other teams caught up to Toyota imo. I think they knew that and have stated that. Starting them at 1089kg for Qatar was a poor decision by the ACO. I feel they should be at Ferrari's weight, as should Peugeot. We know there's going to be changes for LM though, but who gets what? This is an issue with bop that lots foresaw. But here we are.

[Sodemo]

Pug in the presses saying it’s all a bit unfair

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-spa/10610878/

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Matador

So we're saying that their BoP has been disadvantageous since then? lol Not going to argue there, but I feel like Bahrain was pretty convincing.

Haha yes, confusing isn't it? I guess we'll find out a little bit more in a month's time.

[Gerard C]

Another joker for the Pugs before LM?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Another joker for the Pugs before LM?

Have you heard they are? Interesting.
Or are you suggesting they need it?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Pug in the presses saying it’s all a bit unfair

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-spa/10610878/

On paper it is hard to understand how they are ranked vs Toyota and Ferrari.

But this just gave me a new question, how are new teams testing? We heard stories of the Lambo testing before debut that they were very quick, but that hasn't played out in the few races they have had. Is this because they tested at a lower weight or higher power? How would they know what the ACO/FIA would deal them for their first race?

[Matador]

Originally Posted by TF110

Other teams caught up to Toyota imo. I think they knew that and have stated that. Starting them at 1089kg for Qatar was a poor decision by the ACO. I feel they should be at Ferrari's weight, as should Peugeot. We know there's going to be changes for LM though, but who gets what? This is an issue with bop that lots foresaw. But here we are.

Considering the limited development opportunities available, this is of course entirely possible. Fully agree that the draconian weight they were laden with was unfair (the actually modified the regulation to do this much!!!) but BoP is a moving target. tbh I don't really like where we are now, it feels as if we're into a success ballast series and well... imo if it's gonna be that, call it that.

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Haha yes, confusing isn't it? I guess we'll find out a little bit more in a month's time.

The way the wingless wonder suddenly came alive last June, I expect the same from their Evo version. They are gaming the system at this point (as probably are other teams who aren't moaning about it as much) and trying to get a better break, which is why I think the previous system where the BoP was set for several races ahead of time made sense.

Originally Posted by joeb

On paper it is hard to understand how they are ranked vs Toyota and Ferrari.

But this just gave me a new question, how are new teams testing? We heard stories of the Lambo testing before debut that they were very quick, but that hasn't played out in the few races they have had. Is this because they tested at a lower weight or higher power? How would they know what the ACO/FIA would deal them for their first race?

It really is. Ferrari really should have the same weight as Toyota/Peugeot.


As for how the teams are testing, one would assume that they ought to be testing over the range of weight and power possibilities that could present them selves or at least within a range no?

[Sodemo]

In my opinion they should all be at the same weight, or at least all LMH cars and then LMHd should be at a weight appropriate to that platform. I’d actually prefer there to be less variables because you don’t know where a team is really at, have they improved because they understand the car better or have made a breakthrough on setup or are they going better because they have been handed a performance break?

So in my view;

LMH - 1040kg
LMDh - 1030kg

That’s kinda how I would approach it.

The problem with weight is that it can destroy a cars performance to such a degree. At least when they reduce the power it doesn’t overtly affect the cars balance.

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by Matador

It really is. Ferrari really should have the same weight as Toyota/Peugeot.

Actually no, as we don't know the homologation figures for those cars. It seems logical for a car with more torque to be a bit heavier. A less draggy car should also be less powerful. But I agree on the fact BoP parameters should be the same from a track to another. I can't see the point in adding 4kg or cutting 2bhp from a race to another.

Problem with the BoP is : parameters are made public, but homologation figures are not. So nobody understands what is going on BoPside between races and it leaves the door open for all race fixing theories.

I think we will get at some point to the publication of homologation figures. If the FIA/ACO does not do it, a unhappy manufacturer will for its own car. With the aim to try and prove a point against the BoP process.

[Adam43]

Publishing homologation figures (what exactly are those) adds zero value. No one would understand out of context. In addition the adjustments aren’t just to correct for differences in design, but also inaccuracies in the wind tunnel measurements and how they translate to on track performance.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

In my opinion they should all be at the same weight, or at least all LMH cars and then LMHd should be at a weight appropriate to that platform. I’d actually prefer there to be less variables because you don’t know where a team is really at, have they improved because they understand the car better or have made a breakthrough on setup or are they going better because they have been handed a performance break?

So in my view;

LMH - 1040kg
LMDh - 1030kg

That’s kinda how I would approach it.

Which is fine, but that isn’t what this BoP is set up to do.

And having power and weight gives two levers that do two different things.

The problem with weight is that it can destroy a cars performance to such a degree. At least when they reduce the power it doesn’t overtly affect the cars balance.

as it is influential on performance it sounds like a good thing to use!
How it impacts balance is another challenge that all the teams will have considered in their design. Or should have.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So how many of Audis wins do you want to take away when no one else was there?? Oh, that's not something anyone wants to bring up?? Yeah, thought so

I don't want to be that guy, but Audi won 6 Le Mans with minimal competition (00, 01, 02, 04, 05 and 06) and 7 with factory competition. And we can split hairs over 04 and 05 as they were privateer entries - and, in the spirit of this thread, were heavily BOP'd down in 2005 with extra weight and a tiny air restrictor to the point where they were 3 seconds off of the other cars (which were also private entires), and slower in a straight line than LMGT1.

[TF110]

If all cars are in a "performance window" then the bop shouldn't be so spread apart. This means that the window is wider than we thought or there's more to the car's pace than just its power and weight. But the weight is something that hinders any car no matter how good.

[chernaudi]

And not all of Porsche's wins came against the stiffest of oppostion every time, either. Same for some of Ferrari's wins, etc, etc. LM's history as far as big factory competition has tended to be feast or famine. But at the end of the day, you can only race the racetrack, clock and whoever bothers to show up.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TF110

If all cars are in a "performance window" then the bop shouldn't be so spread apart. This means that the window is wider than we thought or there's more to the car's pace than just its power and weight. But the weight is something that hinders any car no matter how good.

Too things here.

Is it a big window or a small window? How is this measured and defined?
You infer this is a wide spread. Is it? How is that measured and defined?

You don’t have a definition of either so you can’t claim that.
You might have an expectation, but that isn’t based on anything.

Now maybe you can argue that this means it isn’t transparent, but frankly even if it was it still adds no value to you.

We know that the ACO wanted a range of cars and looks, so this may be as expected. Also it’s new for the ACO so they could have cunningly added a decent level of flexibility.

Based on the spread of lap times, and here we can reference something we can consider historical spreads, we see a pretty close grid of many cars. Closer than many eras when they all ran to the same weight!

Not meaning to be curt, just stating what we actually have and what we can judge. We don’t know what the expectation was so we can’t judge this.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Have you heard they are? Interesting.
Or are you suggesting they need it?

They need and they can because if I'm right they have two more ready in the bag. No secret that LM is the main target of the team they can't afford another disappointment imo.