The FIA is stupid

[matrix]

Who is TGF ?

[KC]

A lot depends on who you ask.

TGF: refers to "the german Fellow" or Michael Schumacher.

TGF: refers to "the German F*****r" or Michael Schumacher.

[RaceFreak]

Instead of endless debate, why don't we just ASK THE DRIVERS how they'd like to do it. My guess is that we'd get some pretty consistent replies. If we left it up to them each race would be a barn-burner !

[djb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KC
[B]A very large portion of the problem comes from the egos involved in the leadership of F1. Most everyone here, the TV commentators, chassis designers, and other fans agree that mechanical downforce would achieve desirable racing results, but in order for this to happen, the powers that be must admit they were wrong.

KC: I have thought about this topic over the last few years, read many, many articles that confer with all that has been said in this thread-and many others I'm sure-and let's face it, despite perhaps initial well intentions, your comments hit the nail on the head. With drivers, designers etc etc voicing the same concerns, it comes down to egos, and I hope that it will not take too many years for the changes to take place-it makes sense, a quick reversal would admit to being wrong, so it will take awhile-hubris ya know.(not to mention the huge financial and distablizing competition affecting aspects}

[jimclark]

...great idea: Put 'em in a bowl (a la NASCAR) and watch 'em go round and round. Again, I ask, what's wrong with having to deal with a "knife edge"? I want to see the best. I don't enjoy NASCAR, not even CART anymore. Suggestion: go there and let F! carry on as the bar that others are judged by. I'm not interested in cheap thrills of artificially created "competition". I want to watch the best achieve their goals.

[jimclark]

...if these other series are so good, why not just follow them and leave F! to it's own devices. many sound so uninspired by it and compare it to other series. Watch them and quit grumbling. life is too short. If it ain't your cup of tea, drink of another cup.

[matrix]

I prefer the latter myself

Don't like the bloke personally

Originally posted by KC
A lot depends on who you ask.

TGF: refers to "the german Fellow" or Michael Schumacher.

TGF: refers to "the German F*****r" or Michael Schumacher.

[KC]

But are we seeing the best? or just the best funded. There is no doubt that Michael Schumacher is the best of the current lot of drivers, and that Mika Hakkinen is good as well. But isn't Jacques Villeneuve considered good? Is Pedro de la Rosa a loser because he drives for Arrows? Or is it just a case of McLaren and Ferrari having a near unlimited budget and exploiting the rules to their benefit?

Someone earlier called F1 a technological parade. It damn sure is. Sure we get a few glimpses of racing, like Spa and Indy this year, but the majority are boring events where even the vaunted McLaren's and Ferrari's cannot pass a Prost unless they give way. That is not racing, it is a technical exercise performed by and for engineers.

One of the very things that burns in the craw of the F1 purist fan (one who holds F1 in higher esteem only because it is F1 or fashionable to do so) is that so many others are right when the say that better racing can be found in a multitude of other series. Hell, there was more passing in the World Rally Championship this year than in F1.

Are we to be denied of seeing a driver like Jacques Villeneuve overcome the obvious disadvantages of the BAR and take it by the neck and beat Schumacher and Hakkinen, or is he supposed to be in 6th place because his team cannot spend as much money as Ferrari and McLaren. That is not motor racing. Why bother if it is already a foregone conclusion.

I love to watch F1, for the technical aspect it is unmatched, but CART and the IRL and NASCAR and even the World of Outlaws have races where the outcome is not already decided by accountants and engineers in some back room at the factory. A driver's skill has to amount to more than someone who can keep it on the track and successfully block his rivals for 90 minutes.

Sure, you don't have to like any other form of racing, but don't call yourself a racing fan if all you like is the current form of F1, just call yourself an F1 Fan.

[Liz]

Well put, KC. Someday I figure I will tune in at the end of an F1 race and see the cars pull into Parc Ferme - and no one gets out. And the current Mruray/Martin pair announce gleefully, "You have just seen the first Formula One race run entirely by Remote Control!"

Tell me that you would know the difference between current F1 and RC.

[EERO]

Great comments, enzo and KC.

I have to say that I consider myself an F1 fan, and have been one for thirty years-its not that I don't enjoy other forms of racing, but F1 has an elegance and sophistication which eclipses so many other forms of the sport.
That said, I cannot say that F1 offers the best "racing" for a fan to watch. I firmly believe that the rules have been taken so far up a blind alley that the Formula needs to be completely reconceived if we are to achieve any measure of competition.
Many of us feel that any number of rules changes are required to allow the cars to run more closely together.
Whether it is a return to fat slicks; a diminishment of wing size; a return to turbos; the elimination of diffusers; wider tracks; no chicanes or better courses, it is obvious that the current rules are not working and that many thing are wrong with F1.

Despite this, we all watch it on Television, attend races, buy the magazines and souvenirs and talk ad nauseum on this Forum. I am afraid though for the continued health odf the sport I love, and lack of competition between the racers is only one of the factors.


Matrix, I believe it was Liz who coined the phrase, "That German Fellow", for Schuey nearly a year and half ago near the conclusion of his self-inflicted sabbatical. For those of us who were not fans of the man, it stuck and was shortened to TGF.

[Toth]

TGF also stands for Transforming Growth Factor. TGF b1 to b5 are a group of important proteins.
Aaah, this damn chemistry has even invaded my F1!

[Billy_Hunt]

Originally posted by KC

there was more passing in the World Rally Championship this year than in F1.

This is one topic we hear time and time again I for one do not want to see endless overtaking like you get in cart
Boring Boring you might as well not watch the whole race just the last lap then one of any number of cars take the flag if you want to watch cars over taking alot go and stand on a motorway bridge over the M1.
F1 goes deeper than just overtaking Yes its about money Yes its about technology and the rest, it wouldn't be Formula 1 with out it all.
You obviously know, like most JV is a good driver isnt that enough,Just because he isn't winning races and isn't with a top team doesn't make him any less a good driver. He made his decision to stick with BAR dispite the car not being up with the "Top Two".I love watching him working hard with a cr*p car, he produces some really entertaining driving.
Much of the above can be said for all the other drivers in an under performing car too.
With out a shadow of doubt the best drivers are Formula 1 drivers

A driver's skill has to amount to more than someone who can keep it on the track and successfully block his rivals for 90 minutes.

and what would that be left a bit, straighten up, left a bit straighten up, left abit,straighten up WOW what Skill

Everybody seems to be jumping on the band wagon lately having a dig at F1 I too have not been happy with some of the regulation changes ie narrow cars,grooved tyres etc.
But I still enjoy watching the spectacle that is Formula 1 and due to its popularity rise in the world I'd say so are most people not to mention all the fresh major car manufacturers involvement in the sport.
I really enjoyed last season and think it produced some amazing races I also attended my first F1 race and hopefully not my last (funds pending), equally I am looking forward to next season.I intend to start going to a few test sessions (the poor mans way to see an F1 car on track) what other series gets such a following that people go to watch them test ?


In Motorsport terms Formula 1 is in a league of its own and can not and should not not be compared with any other motor sport event.None.. None even come close

[Carla O]

Originally posted by KC
Are we to be denied of seeing a driver like Jacques Villeneuve overcome the obvious disadvantages of the BAR and take it by the neck and beat Schumacher and Hakkinen, or is he supposed to be in 6th place because his team cannot spend as much money as Ferrari and McLaren. That is not motor racing. Why bother if it is already a foregone conclusion.

There was a similar discussion in another Forum...

Is Formula 1 a team sport?
At the end of the day it is down to the driver, but the car, the team, it all counts... McLaren and Ferrari are currently the best teams, so their drivers usually finish first.

I doubt even TGF would do anything in a Minardi...

Carla

[ma]

F1 has ALWAYS been about technology, and should rightly remain so.

The problem is that as the technology has gotten more and mor sophisticated, the driver has become a much smaller part of the equation.

At one time, drivers had to gauge by experience and intuition everything from fuel consumption to tire wear, to brake wear,etc, etc. You could actually watch a driver change his tactics throughout a race according to how he approached a particular corner, and could, if you were sharp enough, figure out what he was doing and why. A driver's "style" was a tangible, watchable, and INTEGRABLE, part of the F1 experience.

A severely inexperienced like Button, with virtually no upper level racecraft, would never have been allowed to go NEAR an F1 car of 20 years ago, never mind be allowed to race one, and somehow be competitive with a much more experienced teammate. It couldn't be done.

If technology were to be allowed to reign supreme in F1, the logical outcome would be cars that are completely "fly by wire", like a modern fighter jet.

Those jets CANNOT, and ARE NOT, flown by direct human control - all the pilot can do is move a stick that then gives a computer an indication of what the pilot wants it to do. The performance envelope of those planes is at a level unheard of 20 years ago thanks to the technology, but the pilot is basicly just a passenger that directs the plane's computer. Pilot SKILL is no longer as important as it was in extracting the most of a planes performance potential. If the computer fails, the plane crashes, period. No human alive can control a modern plane without it's computer functioning.

Do we really want F1 to get to that point, where all the driver does is push buttons and move a stick, with a computer doing all of the rest of the work ?

I sure as hell don't !

[Liz]

My point exactly - simply ramp the electronics up a step or two and eliminate the pilot altogether. You save a lot of money, nobody gets hurt, the races are no more boring than at present, and no expensive PR or egoes to deal with - you can hire the Tecate Girls or equivalent to model the Stuff for Sale, and probably sell more stuff - and all racing will be done by 12 year old geeks in darkened, air conditioned rooms completely sealed away from the fans.

If any.

[jimclark]

...Formula One is, and should remain, the pinnacle. I repeat, if one wants contrived "competition", there are plenty of venues one can observe. We need not lower the standards of THE show.