Andretti F1 - 2025

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

GM was already waiting until 2028 - that is when it has said it would have its own Power Unit ready to be used, or at least Andretti has said that is when it would start using the GM Power Unit.

My earlier posts above commented on this. Why would GM spend any more money on power unit development if their preferred partner has no entry? As I mention earlier, I suspect GM has zero interest in just becoming another F1 power unit supplier on it's own. In fact, I think this is probably why GM hasn't already signed up to be a power unit supplier (at least I don't think they have).

Originally Posted by Tourer

That is why FOM said in its statement that a 2028 start would be viewed very differently.

Can anyone really explain what that means? It is absolutely no guarantee of anything. So it is effectively pointless statement.

I saw a comment on social media elsewhere that said to the effect "Goalposts are heavy, so it must be hard to keep moving them". The entire process has placed ever increasing roadblocks in front of Andretti and Andretti has continued to meet the requests. And at each turn a new excuse has been provided. The most recent is "ask again in 2028". That new moving of the goalpost and FOM's general tone in their response is just galling in the transparency of it's overt offensiveness.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Don't know - but that's why I suggested a few posts ago that if I was Andretti, I'd re-submit the application with a 2028 start date, using GM Power Unit. If Andretti then gets a "yes" (subject to any fees changing with the new Concorde Agreement due before then) then both Andretti and GM have certainty to work with, plan for that date and invest.

Given there is no Concorde Agreement that covers 2028+ (I am broadly assuming the current Concorde Agreement extends through 2027) that means there are no specifics one way or another regarding application, fees, process, etc. as to how that would happen. In short there is no point in applying for anything yet. There is no framework for doing so.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

For what it's worth, as soon as I read about the rejection my immediate thought was that they did it because FOM and the teams, or maybe just the teams, didn't want Andretti admitted until a new Concorde agreement was in force which would raise the sanctioning fee way beyond the current $200 million.

I think that is a big part of it for sure. And teams have said as much openly (even if FOM said they didn't talk to the teams about any of this!) And as I mentioned earlier, a potential delayed entry from GM watered down the "bring a manufacture" part probably didn't sit well with FOM.

What is interesting is that they could have maybe said something as simple as that. Such as... Hey, we just think that a new team, any new team as the current buy in doesn't work for us. That the anti-dilution fee is not high enough (not that I agree with that). But instead I think they decided to place a few knifes in Andretti's back. Why is that? I can think of two reasons. (1) Andretti irritated them and they did it out of pleasure (2) It builds a case against Andretti directly for any future legal action. That at honest answer such as I proposed might not play well in any potential court case. Regardless, I think their tone was overly harsh which IMHO, might actually work against FOM. In that it might show some level of malicious intent. Granted, this is likely to play out in EU courts (if there is any legal action) and I have no real understanding as to what may or may not be damaging in EU courts.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think currently they are considering that the fee should be around the $600 million mark.

I have no opinion on what the new value will be. I suspect it might not be a fixed value, but rather some floating value (with a high minimum) based upon economic factors.

Richard

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I am not an expert on this, but I think GM sells very little in Europe and Europe is not a large focus for them. I think their foreign market focus is China and other parts of Asia (Korea) and I suspect that participation in F1 would not be a great marketing tool for them in those markets. So I think the marketing aspect of F1 is probably targeting the domestic market. And a partner such as Andretti would be the perfect match given the domestic name recognition.

I'm not an expert either but I know GM's biggest markets outside of North America are China and Brazil. What I don't know is how Cadillac translates overseas. The connection between Caddy and Chevy is almost subconscious in the US but will Cadillac F1 sell light trucks in Brazil? I don't know. It's what made the commitment so surprising.

Originally Posted by Richard C

It really is possible that F1 really blew it in the American market. The interest is here, but given ticket prices for US races they might be squeezing a bit too hard without really trying to help their case. Time will tell how this all plays out for new fans. I think those outside of the US probably don't know how dumb the FOM response sounds to US ears.

Richard

I don't know if they've blown it. I've been watching F1 since 1997, the first grand prix I attended was the 2005 USGP, and I keep coming back for more. Clearly, I'm a glutton for punishment.

Also, the undisputed champions of unknowingly ****ing off American race fans goes to the ACO. They are first ballot hall of famers.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Given there is no Concorde Agreement that covers 2028+ (I am broadly assuming the current Concorde Agreement extends through 2027) that means there are no specifics one way or another regarding application, fees, process, etc. as to how that would happen. In short there is no point in applying for anything yet. There is no framework for doing so

The current Concorde Agreement expires at the end of 2025. On that basis, the logic of what you're saying is that a 2026 entry couldn't be applied for, yet as I understand it, the Andretti application was for 2025 or 2026 and Andretti has said itself that its intention was 2026 due to time lines for development.

If I was Andretti I'd get the application in for 2028 & push the issue a bit, see if FOM is true to the suggestion in its statement that a 2028 Andretti / GM entry would be viewed differently. It would have to be done on the basis that fees etc would be subject to the new Concorde Agreement. It just feels like a better approach to me, rather than sitting on your hands until the new Concorde Agreement comes into play in early 2026. I get where you're coming from Richard, just have a different approach to dealing with it.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think that is a big part of it for sure. And teams have said as much openly (even if FOM said they didn't talk to the teams about any of this!) And as I mentioned earlier, a potential delayed entry from GM watered down the "bring a manufacture" part probably didn't sit well with FOM.

What is interesting is that they could have maybe said something as simple as that. Such as... Hey, we just think that a new team, any new team as the current buy in doesn't work for us. That the anti-dilution fee is not high enough (not that I agree with that). But instead I think they decided to place a few knifes in Andretti's back. Why is that? I can think of two reasons. (1) Andretti irritated them and they did it out of pleasure (2) It builds a case against Andretti directly for any future legal action. That at honest answer such as I proposed might not play well in any potential court case. Regardless, I think their tone was overly harsh which IMHO, might actually work against FOM. In that it might show some level of malicious intent. Granted, this is likely to play out in EU courts (if there is any legal action) and I have no real understanding as to what may or may not be damaging in EU courts.


I have no opinion on what the new value will be. I suspect it might not be a fixed value, but rather some floating value (with a high minimum) based upon economic factors.

Richard

I said several months ago that any rejection of the Andretti bid was not F1 as we have known it historically.

It is against the very ethos of F1, and against the very ethos of what Grand Prix are. That is an open competition that anyone can enter and race in regardless. If they are successful they win in the overall way, prize money and sponsorship.
If they fail, they fail and can try again, or go away and lick their wounds, maybe come back, or go and do something else.
This present situation and the assumptions around it are greed.
Ive already said the dilution fund is a joke.
It is simply and artificial enactment to try to close the door on others and superficially increase the value of the teams.
Ive already said everything else about why I believe its a falsehood, so no point in repeating myself.

The best solution for motor sport and the FIA?
The bubble to burst, the whole circus to collapse return to the FIA and a properly run F1 championship rise up, based on the values of open competition it has historically had.

If that actually happens I couldn't be happier about the result of this FOM action.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I have no opinion on what the new value will be. I suspect it might not be a fixed value, but rather some floating value (with a high minimum) based upon economic factors.

Sorry, I meant to say... I agree it will be high, much higher than now. And likely variable. But no clue as to how high it will be. Why not $1B plus!?

Richard

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The current Concorde Agreement expires at the end of 2025. On that basis, the logic of what you're saying is that a 2026 entry couldn't be applied for, yet as I understand it, the Andretti application was for 2025 or 2026 and Andretti has said itself that its intention was 2026 due to time lines for development.

If I was Andretti I'd get the application in for 2028 & push the issue a bit, see if FOM is true to the suggestion in its statement that a 2028 Andretti / GM entry would be viewed differently. It would have to be done on the basis that fees etc would be subject to the new Concorde Agreement. It just feels like a better approach to me, rather than sitting on your hands until the new Concorde Agreement comes into play in early 2026. I get where you're coming from Richard, just have a different approach to dealing with it.

I don't know the legitimacy of this but I have heard from several outlets the "size of the pie" that gets distributed to the teams is separate from the Concorde Agreement and negotiations will happen in 2027 to go in effect for the 2028 season.

Take this with a grain of salt, because I've been trying for days to find out whether it was the FIA or FOM that requested applications in the first place. I'm assuming it is the FIA, but I have yet to find a solid source. Is this what getting old is like?

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Will GM want to wait until 2028?

Will anyone want to wait another 4 to 5 years.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I don't know the legitimacy of this but I have heard from several outlets the "size of the pie" that gets distributed to the teams is separate from the Concorde Agreement and negotiations will happen in 2027 to go in effect for the 2028 season.

Take this with a grain of salt, because I've been trying for days to find out whether it was the FIA or FOM that requested applications in the first place. I'm assuming it is the FIA, but I have yet to find a solid source. Is this what getting old is like?

I believe that it's part of the Concorde Agreement - formula based on various things including points, positions etc. The actual distribution to each of the teams was published by FOM late last year.

The applications were opened / requested by FIA with a clear part of the process that acceptance would be needed from both FIA and FOM for an application to be successful.

Just remember that old age and treachery will always overcome youth and ability - also that toothless be ruthless!

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Will anyone want to wait another 4 to 5 years.

Colton Herta will be 27/28 years old and that's who Andretti wants to put in that seat. Right, wrong, or indifferent, will that be too late for him? Does it matter?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Will anyone want to wait another 4 to 5 years.

If it takes them that long to develop their own power unit then I guess so - 2028 is the year nominated by Andretti / GM to have the GM power unit ready.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I believe that it's part of the Concorde Agreement - formula based on various things including points, positions etc. The actual distribution to each of the teams was published by FOM late last year.

The applications were opened / requested by FIA with a clear part of the process that acceptance would be needed from both FIA and FOM for an application to be successful.

Just remember that old age and treachery will always overcome youth and ability - also that toothless be ruthless!

Well, that's not the news I was hoping to hear, but whatever... I have no control over any of this. I don't need to let let racing raise my blood pressure, I've got plenty of baseball, American football, and soccer teams to do that!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

If it takes them that long to develop their own power unit then I guess so - 2028 is the year nominated by Andretti / GM to have the GM power unit ready.

I know I have said this many times in this thread, and I really would like to hear your thoughts. If Andretti has no entry, why would GM work on a power unit? I think unless the Andretti entry is rescued somehow, there is zero chance we will see GM in F1 anytime soon.

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I don't know if they've blown it. I've been watching F1 since 1997, the first grand prix I attended was the 2005 USGP, and I keep coming back for more. Clearly, I'm a glutton for punishment.

I think for US fans like us who have been here for a long time, maybe not. But I can see it hurting F1 fan growth in the US. I suspect FOM is riding a high on US race ticket sales and feel they can do no wrong.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I said several months ago that any rejection of the Andretti bid was not F1 as we have known it historically.

Agree

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The best solution for motor sport and the FIA?
The bubble to burst, the whole circus to collapse return to the FIA and a properly run F1 championship rise up, based on the values of open competition it has historically had.

If that actually happens I couldn't be happier about the result of this FOM action.

Would love to see this.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I know I have said this many times in this thread, and I really would like to hear your thoughts. If Andretti has no entry, why would GM work on a power unit? I think unless the Andretti entry is rescued somehow, there is zero chance we will see GM in F1 anytime soon.

My thoughts are largely the same as I've put forward - assuming that GM is only prepared to come in with Andretti, I'd get the application in right now for 2028 to try & obtain approval in advance, or at least some kind of commitment from FIA / FOM. Assuming that is obtained, then work and planning can continue.

If approval is not forthcoming, then there are three options for GM / Andretti:

• Buy an existing team and start competing once that purchase process is completed.
• Walk away from F1 completely.
• Continue work in the belief that the package will be strong enough to gain approval closer to 2028.

Clearly the 3rd option is the highest risk one and also the one least likely to be followed by GM, which has responsibilities to shareholders etc.

So that leaves the viable options as re-apply now, buy another team or walk away. I'd be going hard on re-applying now out of those three, particularly given the pretty strong statement in the FOM release about how a 2028 Andretti/GM project would be viewed very differently from the current Andretti / customer engine project put forward.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Assuming that is obtained, then work and planning can continue.

Yeah, we are talking past each other. I understand what you are saying as to their options. But it doesn't answer the question as to why would GM continue to spend money on F1 power unit R&D if they have no guaranteed entry for their partner. Your answer is effectively to spend the money and hope for the best. Nobody in their right mind would approve funding for that.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Yeah, we are talking past each other. I understand what you are saying as to their options. But it doesn't answer the question as to why would GM continue to spend money on F1 power unit R&D if they have no guaranteed entry for their partner. Your answer is effectively to spend the money and hope for the best. Nobody in their right mind would approve funding for that.

Richard

My view is that Andretti / GM have a possible opportunity to get a guaranteed entry by re-applying but if the aren’t successful or don’t try, then yes, it’s hard to see any logic in GM progressing.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think for US fans like us who have been here for a long time, maybe not. But I can see it hurting F1 fan growth in the US. I suspect FOM is riding a high on US race ticket sales and feel they can do no wrong.


Richard

I think you're right. And whatever truly American team that joins the sport still has some work to do to earn my support!... I've been a McLaren fan for 25+ years now!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Yeah, we are talking past each other. I understand what you are saying as to their options. But it doesn't answer the question as to why would GM continue to spend money on F1 power unit R&D if they have no guaranteed entry for their partner. Your answer is effectively to spend the money and hope for the best. Nobody in their right mind would approve funding for that.

Richard

Agree totally.
And what the FOM decision about Andretti effectively says is that any team/OEM who attempts to start a new entry cannot be guaranteed an opportunity to get a place on the grid unless FOM/LM deem them to be s suitable partner....

And also that the existing ten teams have the right to block any new entrants not withstanding that the maximum grid under the FIA rules is 26 cars.

The FIA itself cannot even give approval to any new entrant to actually join the grid unless FOM and the desire of the teams see the entrant as being acceptable on their terms, which it is becoming obvious is purely financial, not sporting.
This is nothing like F1 historically.
Not even like it was 10-12 years ago.
It is almost as if the people running the show and participating in it have fallen in love with themselves and their own PR, and become completely divorced from reality, not even able to see themselves as others see them.

We may not be at the peak of foolishness yet, but it can ultimately only lead downwards.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I think you're right. And whatever truly American team that joins the sport still has some work to do to earn my support!... I've been a McLaren fan for 25+ years now!

I am not quite monogamous (not sure what word to use here!) in my fandom. I like Honda and Porsche from a "manufacture" perspective. I tend to like underdog teams, but will stick with them once for a bit while they are on top. So I have cheered for Red Bull recently, but have really been a McLaren and more specifically Williams fan for a long time and would love to see either of them stick it to Red Bull! So I end up cheering for many teams! I typically don't have strong affinity for specific drivers over others as some do.

If Andretti were to get in. I probably would support them via my "underdog" tendencies, but any long term support would not be guaranteed.

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Colton Herta will be 27/28 years old and that's who Andretti wants to put in that seat. Right, wrong, or indifferent, will that be too late for him? Does it matter?

Inexperienced team, rookie season , rookie driver who let’s be honest is middling / good in Indycar. Hardly a recipie for pulling up trees…

[bathurst77]

Could this predicate a Haas buy out?
Gene might say hes going nowhere, but in the f1 world everything is for sale, its just the price.

Hypothetical.
Haas sells to Andretti. Then Haas try to buy in as team 11. FOM cant say "unknown, inexperienced" etc.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Could this predicate a Haas buy out?
Gene might say hes going nowhere, but in the f1 world everything is for sale, its just the price.

Hypothetical.
Haas sells to Andretti. Then Haas try to buy in as team 11. FOM cant say "unknown, inexperienced" etc.

What they say is irrelevant to the real reason they knocked back Andretti.It is 100% about the teams not wanting to cut the pie 11 ways instead of 10.Then FOM has to do the teams bidding to keep them on side.

[billy bleach]

In its lengthy statement explaining the decision to block Andretti's debut, the Liberty Media-owned Formula One Group mentioned that team officials actually turned down one particular offer of a meeting in London.

Andretti has now hit back, claiming the invitation went into an email spam folder.

Enough said......can't even run an email account properly

[bjohnsonsmith]

An interesting article from Motorsport, in the aftermath of the Andretti decision. Apparently the e-mail that ended up in the spam folder was sent by an F1 employee, rather than Domenicali.

As for a 2028 entry, the penultimate paragraph says: ''Andretti will remain free of any financial or aero testing restrictions for a couple of years, and the team can spend whatever it wants to spend on R&D.''

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...sion/10572307/

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As for a 2028 entry, the penultimate paragraph says: ''Andretti will remain free of any financial or aero testing restrictions for a couple of years, and the team can spend whatever it wants to spend on R&D.''

I thought of two snarky comments and couldn't decide which to go with so I will give you both.

(1) Don't fall for it Andretti. It's a trap.

In 2028 the other teams will claim that Andretti and GM have an unfair advantage given the financial resources and significant racing pedigree of both organizations. Their ability to have spent, hire and organize without any limits constitutes an unfair advantage for any entry in 2028. That they should follow established governance for spending (just like any other F1 team and Power Unit manufacture). Given this issue, FOM can not accept an application for 2028, but would look favorably toward an application from them in 2035.

(2) A kind clarification from Stefano Domenicali

Gentle Mr. Andretti,

I wanted to reach out to you to provide some extra clarity on our response to your recent application to join the Formula 1 racing series. As we have previously noted, we are unable to accept your application for a variety of reasons we have cooked up.

As part of that response, we felt that as you are not a Formula 1 team (and God willing you never will be) it might seem callous and uncaring for us to place restrictions upon how you spend your own money in the future. Therefore as it is your money, you can spend it as you see fit. Consider this a blessing we have bestowed upon you as consolation for not being accepted.

We understand that Pickleball is quite popular in the United States. Consider taking that up as a hobby. Or open a cupcake shop. Of if you want, you can continue to play house with General Motors and make "race cars".

Anyhow, best of wishes in your future endeavors.

Cordiali saluti,
Stefano "The Hammer" Domenicali
CEO Formula One Group

PS: Please stop calling and texting as I have blocked your number



Richard