Brabham BT21 - Page 10

LoLola · 7 Apr 2007, 15:22 (Ref:1885467)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=190100679451

allenbrown · 7 Apr 2007, 19:32 (Ref:1885602)

As the ebay advert won't be available for ever, it says:

Brabham BT-21 Formula 2 Race Car Chasis #BT-21-31

I've been holding on to this beauty for way too long and it's time for me to let it go since I need more storage space for my motorcycle collection. Local pick-up only or you can you hire your own delivery service. Don't hesitate to email me with any questions or for more detailed photos.

Brabham BT-21 Formula 2
Chasis #BT-21-3T (The last chasis built)
Total concours quality restoration and race preparation.
Lotus twin cam 1600cc; Hewland 5 speed.
Engine cowl, some misc. parts.
Have matching McLaren from the same pre wing mid 60's era.

Plus two pictures dated 1990.

Dan Bruggeman · 8 Apr 2007, 14:29 (Ref:1886425)

Hi Guys,
The SCCA log book that came with the car has photos that look quite a bit diffrent from the current configuration.
The Log book lists the model as BT-21-25 FB.
The first enry is 1976 and is at PIR which I beleive to be Portland, OR.
l5 races entered and the last was 1979 at PIR a well.
Still wondering if you guys know of anywhere to get hat dash plate.
If unavailable I'll probably have one custome screen printed.
Thanks-Dan

allenbrown · 8 Apr 2007, 14:57 (Ref:1886441)

Dan

So could it be chassis BT21-25? The AM number would be roughly right for it to be that car. It could have gone to the US originally for FC and become a FB later.

It is possible to get replica chassis plates. However, I'm sure you'd want to establish exactly the right number before having one made.

Allen

Chris Townsend · 8 Apr 2007, 17:58 (Ref:1886543)

Dewey Harless is running an FC BT21 at PIR as early as 1970 though that's sometimes described as a 21C.
What are the names in the logbook from 76 to 79? This may give us a clue

Chris

macbt21 · 12 Apr 2007, 01:46 (Ref:1889413)

I have BT-21C-10, chassis number AM287. It was originally an SCCA Formula "B" car but was converted to FF specs and I am trying to return it back to original specs. I find it really hard to get parts information. You can find many photos and information on the car at www.frontiernet.net/~macbt21. It is not a commercial site and was only set up to share my story and post my resume'. There is a copy of the logbook, a list of previous owners and pdf files of the original documentation that came with the car.

macbt21 · 12 Apr 2007, 01:56 (Ref:1889416)

My car is BT-21C-10 and has chassis number AM287. It still has the original dashplate and I believe it was built in 1968.

Andrew Fellowes · 12 Apr 2007, 02:06 (Ref:1889420)

Welcome macbt21, in the absence of the Europeans, who will I am sure, be able to solve some of the missing parts you need when they are back on line in the morning. Most are easily done I feel. Nice site you have.

Andrew

allenbrown · 12 Apr 2007, 08:00 (Ref:1889519)

Welcome Mac.

You've done a great job with that website documenting the project. I'm not going to be much help with parts (Ted and Simon will probably be along later and should be able to advise) but could I ask you about those original owners? Did Charles E. Cottrell Jr own the car from 1968 or could there have been owners before Cottrell? Also, is there anything in the logbook saying where Cottrell raced it as I can't find any results for him at Lime Rock or Watkins Glen where I'd have expected him to run.

Thanks

Allen

Chris Townsend · 12 Apr 2007, 10:20 (Ref:1889603)

Welcome Mac

Given the area I'd expect the name Mike Rand to crop up somewhere in this car's history. Big question is, however, how far back does the log book go? Can you let us see some of the pages where drivers' usually indecipherable signatures appear?
Unfortunately NE Region SCCA was not the most enthusiastic about publishing results so mid-field and back marker cars in SCCA Formula are hard to track down.
However, given that Formula and Race Car were quite good at publishing full results for national FF races in the mid 70s we might find this car there in the period before you bought it.

Chris

macbt21 · 12 Apr 2007, 15:26 (Ref:1889786)

The earliest date in the book is May 13, 1972. I believe that was the day the logbook was issued. It was issued by Jason D. Anderson of the Steel Cities region of the SCCA. I have no idea who owned the car before Mr. Cottrell. I have made an internet search to try to find his phone number with no luck.

Chris Townsend · 12 Apr 2007, 16:27 (Ref:1889829)

Steel Cities would suggest running at Nelson Ledges, and perhaps a PA or OH based driver running it in the pro series before then. Will look for some likely names. I know that Wintersteen Racing ran BT21C-1 in 1968 and they were based in Mohrsville, PA.
Also will try and do a round-up of BT21Cs later, because we seem to have a good number of them now known with current owners, but very few first owners.
I think the guy with 21C-11 in Arizona was Hal Roach, but I don't have an email. I'd like to know more of this car's history as the ad for it on race-cars.com said it went new to JRDS as a school car at Willow Springs, but I have a mid 70s BT21C running in SCCA in Arizona and while I can't believe there were two there I'd like some confirmation

Chris

Wayne Mitchell · 12 Apr 2007, 16:27 (Ref:1889831)

Hi all 21 owners.
I need a BT21 header/exhaust system for a 21 with MAE engine at 30 degrees. There were 3 sytems in period. 4 into 2 into 1, 4 into 1 and "Up and over". I would like a "4 into 2 into one". Here is the deal.
Loan me one for a couple of weeks for trial fitting a car in restoration and we will digitize it and have continuously bent tubes made on a cnc bender.
I will then make the sets up with flanges etc weld and return your sample along with a new one. Collectors are not needed or included in the deal. If we can't find a 4 into 2 into 1, I may have to settle for a 4 into one. I will pay the UPS. Offer good within US and Canada or Other by arrangement.
We are doing about 4 or five sets initially and do not want made up from bends type systems. TDC or Mike the Pipe still around in UK? Any help respectfully accepted. Wayne Mitchell San Diego

macbt21 · 12 Apr 2007, 16:55 (Ref:1889856)

I think Hal's e-mail address is hajuro@yahoo.com. He also listed a website with photos. It was http://www.babiespage.com/BT21C-11/local%20Publish/index.html

edholly · 13 Apr 2007, 07:12 (Ref:1890197)

Hi Mac

I own a BT21C with its frame number as AM288, the next one laid down after your AM287.

I have always suspected that my chassis number is BT21C-14 as per previous posts, and now see that -10, your car, and -11 Hal’s car are accounted for. I know that -12 lives here in Australia, and I don’t believe that Brabham would have produced a -13, maybe Chris or Allen could confirm that.

I would be interested to know what the AM number of Hal’s car is.

I have been right back through the thread and come up with the following 8 x 21Cs identified. Can anyone add to this?

Mac, if you need some photos, I have some I have taken of the various C’s here and a few of the Dizanne family’s car before it was restored. Email me if you want them.

BT21C-3 Ashwell
BT21C-6 Rechede
BT21C-10 AM287 MacBT21
BT21C-11 Roach
BT21C-12 AM269 Dizanne family
BT21C- ? AM288 Holly possibly -14 ?
BT21C-16 Nick LoLola
BT21C-17 Les Wright

Ed

Chris Townsend · 13 Apr 2007, 09:04 (Ref:1890254)

Pretty much there Ed.
I don't think Brabham built chassis 13 [though as they did on BT15; BT18; BT21 I might want to retract that later...]
We also know the following in period:
1: Peter Goetz
2: Opert though whether as his car, a rental or sold on is unknown
3: Opert for Coleman?
4: Opert
5: Opert
6: Williamson hillclimb car
11: JRDS Willow Springs
12: Charlie Adams
13: ???
14: W. McLoughlin?
16: Ward? [or is this first owner known, later in history?]
17: Eaves
19: Hawthorne Tasman car

Chris

macbt21 · 13 Apr 2007, 13:16 (Ref:1890432)

I have sent an e-mail to Hal Roach to try to get the e-mail address of the new owner of that car. I think the person that bought it lives in the Chicago, Ill area. I had his address and he sent me many great photos but have since lost it when my former employer, Kodak, shut down my division. I actually have a photo of the left rear of the car and can make out "AM" but cannot see the number !!!!

I think I will soon have enough money to restore the front suspension so I am looking for information and dimensions specific to that area. Information that I am really seeking right now is a source for front brake rotors and front wheel studs. Were the brake calipers alloy or steel? Mine are steel but I have a complete set of alloy calipers in a box. The factory specs say the front rotors are 10.3". Mine are much smaller, about 9". Lee Chapman lists some that are 9.75" but state they may not be exact copies.

edholly · 14 Apr 2007, 07:22 (Ref:1890857)

Mac

Send me an email and I will send you what I can as per setup sizes photos etc ... edholly@optusnet.com.au

Ed

allenbrown · 19 Apr 2007, 07:40 (Ref:1895265)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

There are several more obscure BT21s in Atlantic still to work out, but I thought that I would have a stab at working out those 50 or so BT21s, based on RAPs chassis numbers and my own notes from the press about who bought whose car:

BT21-20: March 67 Howden Ganley, retained 1968

BT21-20: March 67 Howden Ganley, retained 1968 - modified by Jack Smith/Bill Stone to FB specs for Al Justason Canada 1969

Al Justason emailed me last night. More to follow on appropriate threads.

Allen

Leighton Irwin · 19 Apr 2007, 18:37 (Ref:1895698)

Good to know Al Justason is still about. He and I had some great dices in our Elva Mk6's. Then he was running in FB/FA when I was crewing for BJ. He had a lovely girlfriend!

Robert_R · 23 Apr 2007, 14:35 (Ref:1898624)

Hello

fwiw, here is a BT21 announced for sale at the next auction of the Oldtimer Galerie (Toffen near Berne/Switzerland), www.oldtimergalerie.ch:

Lot 067
Brabham-Repco BT21 Formula 3, 1967
Estimate CHF 45'000 - 55'000
Chassis-Number BT21-047. Novamotor-Ford 1'000 cc. Engine redone in 1999/2000. Restored, not driven in races since. Very good condition. No papers with the car.

Robert

Dan Bruggeman · 24 Apr 2007, 18:28 (Ref:1899513)

Hi Guys,
Sorry it took so long to reply.
The name in the log book is hard to make out but it looks like Roderico Madieos?. I'm sure I have the spelling wrong.
The events entered are a drivers sckool in 3/6/76, a national at PIR 9/4/78, Westwood 1/4/79, Spring Sprint (no date), ICSCC PIR 9/21/79.
Thanks-Dan

Chris Townsend · 23 May 2007, 13:45 (Ref:1919559)

The ex Ganley BT21 that Al Justason had was not BT21-20. It was chassis 8. Al still has the plate.
This is feasible as the only observation we have of BT21-20 is from 1968, so he perhaps used a different car in 1967.
According to Al the car was built up for FB by Bill Stone and Jack Smith. F1R notes Stone using the chassis at the Madrid GP of 1969, presumably as a shakedown for sending it to Canada.
After one season the car was sold, as a rolling chassis, to Joe Grimaldi and Justason bought the BT23F off of Bill Gubelman.

Chris

phdm · 6 Jun 2007, 21:42 (Ref:1930671)

Has anyone ever seen a Brabham chassis plate with BT21-047 (yes 047) stamped on it ?

Denis Lupton · 6 Jun 2007, 23:15 (Ref:1930757)

BT21-047
Never. That's an American way of numbering.The Brabham chassis number's were in the British manner, a genuine plate would be BT21-47 , no zero.
Denis

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