ALMS 2010 Discussion

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I don't think we have a hard-on for Grand Am, its the direct rival and if they only saw that its futile there would be some oxygen for sponsors. All you can say positive about them is close racing but after what happen with Ganassi and being penalized for not having an illegal engine; the word contrived comes to mind.

I've got news for you: The only futile effort here is the ALMS. Grand-Am will be around for years and years to come. Even if it loses money year after year after year, as long as it does not financially affect the top 3 NASCAR series. It's going to operate simply because the France family wants to control another facet of North American motorsport and I promise you the France family can fight Don Panoz, dollar for dollar, ten times over. This is why the ALMS lack of foresight and plan for the future is hurting tremendously.

Tom Kjos and Marshall Pruett can write all they about GA going under from this year to the next but it's only going to happen in their dreamlands.

As for the Ganassi penalty, the motor was over the prescribed HP limit. That's illegal. It's just like the IRL blocking rules. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but at least be smart enough to recognize it was applied correctly.

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Scale? Hmm, nobody really keeps track (for free) what Nationwide does ratings wise (I found something though), but I think its very comparable to Camping World Truck

Nationwide and Camping World Truck have limited appeal outside the US. On that scale its competitive. Its currently competitive with Indy Car, especially on Cable.

I'm failing to see what the CWTS and NNS have to do with this discussion but they're apart of the juggernaut that not only overshadows ALMS but completely engulfs it. Anytime those two series run with the Sprint Cup series, that's probably more direct and indirect recognition nationally than ALMS gets for Sebring.

[arakis]

Grand AM hatread by most ALMS fans has nothing to do with envi, its just the simple fact that with so much cash at NASCARS disposal Grand AM could have been great, and it was for a while, but then they aplied the cup rules to Sports cars, and thats what ****es most people off that and the DP's are seriusly Ugly. And whle Grand AM is losing serius cash for NASCAR, insted of figuring it out, the only thing they are gonna address is the ugly part!

[HORNDAWG]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE ALMS! TAKE THE GRAND AM DISCUSSION SOMEWHERE ELSE, BEFORE THIS THREAD GETS TURNED INTO JUNK!!!!









L.P.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by 6157

I've got news for you: The only futile effort here is the ALMS. Grand-Am will be around for years and years to come. Even if it loses money year after year after year, as long as it does not financially affect the top 3 NASCAR series. It's going to operate simply because the France family wants to control another facet of North American motorsport and I promise you the France family can fight Don Panoz, dollar for dollar, ten times over. This is why the ALMS lack of foresight and plan for the future is hurting tremendously.

Tom Kjos and Marshall Pruett can write all they about GA going under from this year to the next but it's only going to happen in their dreamlands.

As for the Ganassi penalty, the motor was over the prescribed HP limit. That's illegal. It's just like the IRL blocking rules. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but at least be smart enough to recognize it was applied correctly.

I'm failing to see what the CWTS and NNS have to do with this discussion but they're apart of the juggernaut that not only overshadows ALMS but completely engulfs it. Anytime those two series run with the Sprint Cup series, that's probably more direct and indirect recognition nationally than ALMS gets for Sebring.

I can't speak for Marshall Pruett, but if you think Tom Kjos is writing "about GA going under," then you're very much out of date. In fact I can't remember an article with that point of view. I really don't care if you don't bother reading Tom Kjos (I anticipate that will be your answer), but then please don't characterize his point of view.

For the record: quite to the contrary of your assertion, Tom Kjos' editorial comment on LTC has been focused on the ALMS (that's true since its launch in 2006), and almost since that time, it has been highly critical of ALMS management and the direction of the series, even more so since 2008, after which it has made a number of "wrong turns," that certainly threaten its future (and have damaged its present).

I don't agree with part of your premise, however, that ISC/NASCAR/the France family will pursue the Grand Am adventure indefinately if it does not show potential for success. With NASCAR struggling (relatively), there has been some internal (and external) "review." In the near future, that will likely lead to substantial changes in Grand Am, but NOT to its demise any time soon. Further to the contrary, Grand Am posses a much greater threat to the viability of ALMS than it ever has in the past. (Much of that due to ALMS' own action/inaction over the past two seasons.)

[chernaudi]

To end the Grand Am discussion, NASCAR has enough influence to keep Grand Am in business, but also enough influence to keep it from overshadowing their "main" product. Enough said there.

I think one of the big errors that ALMS' management made was not getting a title sponsor to kick some money into the series. Granted, factory teams don't get race prize money and have limited point fund and contingency money avalible to them, but if you're Highcroft(a privateer even during the hight of the Acura/Honda days according to IMSA), racing for only $35K with a $1 million+ race car is sort of self defeating.

John Menard was interested in sponsoring a series like Indy Car or ALMS a while back for $1-3 million a year. If I were IMSA, I'd take the money if it was offered, because Menards might be a hardware store(an outside of IMSA's "world class" demographic), but they need any promo and financial help they can get.

Would IMSA or any team turn down sponsorship by Little, Brown Publishers/Hatchett Book Group or Summit Entertainment LLC due to their asscoitaion with the Twilight Saga books and films? If enough cash is waved, I don't think so.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

To end the Grand Am discussion, NASCAR has enough influence to keep Grand Am in business, but also enough influence to keep it from overshadowing their "main" product. Enough said there.

I think one of the big errors that ALMS' management made was not getting a title sponsor to kick some money into the series. Granted, factory teams don't get race prize money and have limited point fund and contingency money avalible to them, but if you're Highcroft(a privateer even during the hight of the Acura/Honda days according to IMSA), racing for only $35K with a $1 million+ race car is sort of self defeating.

John Menard was interested in sponsoring a series like Indy Car or ALMS a while back for $1-3 million a year. If I were IMSA, I'd take the money if it was offered, because Menards might be a hardware store(an outside of IMSA's "world class" demographic), but they need any promo and financial help they can get.

Would IMSA or any team turn down sponsorship by Little, Brown Publishers/Hatchett Book Group or Summit Entertainment LLC due to their asscoitaion with the Twilight Saga books and films? If enough cash is waved, I don't think so.

But that is one of LTC's often mentioned criticisms, that "World Class" has nothing to do with "For The Fans". Spending 3+ Million dollars to find out what your target demographic is when you could have handed out a short form and number 2 pencils at Petit Le Mans, Mid Ohio, Lime Rock, Long Beach, Laguna Seca and Mosport to get an idea and would have cost much less.

While a good chunk of the fan base is affluent, that didn't give them Carte Blanche to try and remove money from their wallets.

Sports is different than other businesses, its usually run by somebody that's passionate about the sport, but treats all money transactions as business transactions.

It shouldn't take the near collapse of a series to finally acknowledge that you need input from the very teams that are loyal to the series.

[6157]

Originally Posted by TWK

I can't speak for Marshall Pruett, but if you think Tom Kjos is writing "about GA going under," then you're very much out of date. In fact I can't remember an article with that point of view. I really don't care if you don't bother reading Tom Kjos (I anticipate that will be your answer), but then please don't characterize his point of view.

My bad. "Murphy The Bear" continually writes about GA's demise.

You'll have to excuse the confusion, I stopped playing with stuffed bears when I was 3.

[Fogelhund]

Let's be entirely fair.. I am not being critical of any of those pointing out the current issues of the ALMS, but the Grand Am Rolex series isn't exactly doing great. 13 DP's (at the last race) is a massive drop in entries, and the GT category completely irrelevant at this current juncture. Without massive changes the Rolex series just doesn't make any business sense. Continuing the trend downward, we are into single digit DP's in a year or so.

Continental Tire on the other hand is a massive win.

Sitting around saying your series sucks worse than mine is rather ridiculous. Neither are moving in a positive direction at all. One was intended as a Manufacturer supported, financed and spectator dependent. It lost the manufacturer support in the main class, the financing that goes with it, and eventually will lose the spectators should privateers fill the top category.

The other was intended to be supported by entries, and has seen those drop greatly, having never really captured much interest from spectators at all.

This is kind of like watching IRL vs. Champcars. Depending on the month or news release, one looked to be in worse shape than the other, changing probabilities as to who wasn't going to make it.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by 6157

My bad. "Murphy The Bear" continually writes about GA's demise.

You'll have to excuse the confusion, I stopped playing with stuffed bears when I was 3.

You are still wrong. Murphy the Bear has written more about ALMS problems. Braselburg (as he refers to it) has had a "mole hunt" underway. International Speedway Boulevard has not. Most of the time, what he is writing is simply what others are saying (those are usually called "rumors.") It's what Murphy does.

Either read what you refer to in your arguments or shut up. Your choice.

Aren't trolls little dolls?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TWK

Aren't trolls little dolls?

Sometimes - except when they're members here......

[picchiofan]

What's the easiest way to identify the sane & rational people on boards like this?

When the ostriches all call them a "troll".

FWIW: the term "troll" is in regards to a fishing reference, you guys can't even get that right.

[chernaudi]

In general, sportscar racing is in trouble. The prototypes in ALMS and Grand Am are expensive(even a DP cost much more than an NASCAR stock car), and the GT cars are only less so, and the battle over production based prep 1 and NASCAR-esque prep 2 cars in Grand Am make the series irrelevant and a cause for agrument there. At least the ALMS has a very deep GT class, but that's about all it has going for it short term.

Foglehund is right about why the ALMS and Grand Am are tanking, and the recession has made things worse when corporate boards dictate the finances, and that's where good marketing has come in.

Even then, try finding sportscar or GT/touring car races on TV. It's hard, especially in the US, unless one wants to stay up and watch Speed at night, though they at least have the courtesy to show ALMS and Grand Am races live or same day tape in their entirity.

NASCAR and F1 might have their issues, but they're still in good enough shape(even barely) to have created a sponsor and marketing vaccum, which the economy has made worse. I believe that Audi may've run the ALMS full time this year and last year if they didn't have to sponsor themselves entirely-Audi hasn't had a big primary sponsor since Infineon got sued by the US government in 2004 over the DRM price fixing scam. Shell has come closest to that form of sponsorship, but I don't see any Shell branding on the 2010 R15.

Highcroft is only racing because of the Patron and General Electric sponsorship(ironically, Roger Penske is a member of GE's corporate board, and he ran Porsches against Highcroft in the ALMS in '07 and '08).

Lack of marketing=lack of sponsors, and manufacturers don't want to spend the coin to sponsor themselves and do most of the sports marketing like Audi had done for the ALMS and Audi and Peugeot did for the LMS pre-2009. Only reason they're backing the ILMC is that Audi has argued for a World Sportscar Championship revival since 2000, and it's only 3 races long this year and only 6-7 next year.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In general, sportscar racing is in trouble. The prototypes in ALMS and Grand Am are expensive(even a DP cost much more than an NASCAR stock car), and the GT cars are only less so, and the battle over production based prep 1 and NASCAR-esque prep 2 cars in Grand Am make the series irrelevant and a cause for agrument there. At least the ALMS has a very deep GT class, but that's about all it has going for it short term.

Foglehund is right about why the ALMS and Grand Am are tanking, and the recession has made things worse when corporate boards dictate the finances, and that's where good marketing has come in.

Even then, try finding sportscar or GT/touring car races on TV. It's hard, especially in the US, unless one wants to stay up and watch Speed at night, though they at least have the courtesy to show ALMS and Grand Am races live or same day tape in their entirity.

NASCAR and F1 might have their issues, but they're still in good enough shape(even barely) to have created a sponsor and marketing vaccum, which the economy has made worse. I believe that Audi may've run the ALMS full time this year and last year if they didn't have to sponsor themselves entirely-Audi hasn't had a big primary sponsor since Infineon got sued by the US government in 2004 over the DRM price fixing scam. Shell has come closest to that form of sponsorship, but I don't see any Shell branding on the 2010 R15.

Highcroft is only racing because of the Patron and General Electric sponsorship(ironically, Roger Penske is a member of GE's corporate board, and he ran Porsches against Highcroft in the ALMS in '07 and '08).

Lack of marketing=lack of sponsors, and manufacturers don't want to spend the coin to sponsor themselves and do most of the sports marketing like Audi had done for the ALMS and Audi and Peugeot did for the LMS pre-2009. Only reason they're backing the ILMC is that Audi has argued for a World Sportscar Championship revival since 2000, and it's only 3 races long this year and only 6-7 next year.

Not only that, the OEM's want to explore emerging markets (read: China).

I still say ALMS has hurt themselves and people love the series so much they market it themselves -



Tamiya is a fixture at every Long Beach GP.

As I said people still play SCGT, people use Race2Play and use the Acura and Porsche P2 prototypes.

So the fans think its great, love it. The problem is ALMS is not doing what it should to make sure others know about it.

How come Tamiya isn't the official static model and radio control model of the ALMS?

What about Hot Wheels, is that too low brow?

Expensive Watches, B2B Services, are fans really interested in this stuff???

Or is that Rich Men talking to themselves????

As for the Grand Am/ALMS model, I much rather have a solid GT class than a largely irrelevant DP AND GT class.

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Not only that, the OEM's want to explore emerging markets (read: China).

I still say ALMS has hurt themselves and people love the series so much they market it themselves -



Tamiya is a fixture at every Long Beach GP.

As I said people still play SCGT, people use Race2Play and use the Acura and Porsche P2 prototypes.

So the fans think its great, love it. The problem is ALMS is not doing what it should to make sure others know about it.

How come Tamiya isn't the official static model and radio control model of the ALMS?

What about Hot Wheels, is that too low brow?

Expensive Watches, B2B Services, are fans really interested in this stuff???

Or is that Rich Men talking to themselves????

As for the Grand Am/ALMS model, I much rather have a solid GT class than a largely irrelevant DP AND GT class.

Don't forget cheese....

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

Don't forget cheese....

Yeah useless cheese and I heard that's more B2B than actual product a fan can buy.

I think they are Rich Men talking among themselves.

For you WMU -

http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/miniz/i...part_num=32702

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

John Menard was interested in sponsoring a series like Indy Car or ALMS a while back for $1-3 million a year. If I were IMSA, I'd take the money if it was offered, because Menards might be a hardware store(an outside of IMSA's "world class" demographic), but they need any promo and financial help they can get.

If this narcissistic asinine attitude actually was part of the IMSA's agenda, it deserves to die for being run by arrogant ah-- for brains asses.

The Menards stores here had posters on the front door for the Nationwide race at Road America and for the first time in decades I had people ask me if I was going to Road America for the race, because they knew I used to go there several time a year and they had seen the poster on the door.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

What's the easiest way to identify the sane & rational people on boards like this?

When the ostriches all call them a "troll".

FWIW: the term "troll" is in regards to a fishing reference, you guys can't even get that right.

In all honesty, I don't desperately care. The original definition is largely otiose for moderators faced with boards full of wise words.....

[Matt]

Re: Menards sponsorship.

Would look cool to see a Prototype and GT team in the bright Menards Yellow.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Matt

Re: Menards sponsorship.

Would look cool to see a Prototype and GT team in the bright Menards Yellow.

Yeah it would look interesting but I assume its not "High Brow" enough.

To Bob's Point -

When the Long Beach GP is in town you can find posters and tv commercials.

I went to the "Party" Izoid put on for Indy Car in Hollywood. Turnout was decent for such a thing. I know the ALMS does that in smaller markets, it does work.

I still say if you can get the kids to talk about it and its fairly affordable compared to Sprint Cup, more adults will go by default. This is why you have plush toys, die-cast, R/C's and other toys.

Aren't largely talking about Marketing 101?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Yeah it would look interesting but I assume its not "High Brow" enough.

To Bob's Point -

When the Long Beach GP is in town you can find posters and tv commercials.

I went to the "Party" Izoid put on for Indy Car in Hollywood. Turnout was decent for such a thing. I know the ALMS does that in smaller markets, it does work.

I still say if you can get the kids to talk about it and its fairly affordable compared to Sprint Cup, more adults will go by default. This is why you have plush toys, die-cast, R/C's and other toys.

Aren't largely talking about Marketing 101?

This continual drivel about 'High Brow' is patently contrary to evidence! Lowes as an example, was welcomed in, as was DHL, Falken Tire, NEC etc.. none of which are 'High Brow'!




L.P.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

This continual drivel about 'High Brow' is patently contrary to evidence! Lowes as an example, was welcomed in, as was DHL, Falken Tire, NEC etc.. none of which are 'High Brow'!

L.P.

No, but where are those sponsors today? How come Fernandez left? I am positive Lowe's would have continued sponsorship if they knew in advance they would get more TV time. They we're not shown as often (in 2009) because they were dominating LMP2 and Dyson's reliability woes are well documented.

So ahead of that and with the uncertainty in the economy, they reduced his budget. Obviously he (as a personal sponsor) has enough money to buy a seat with AMR, but not enough to continue his own operation.

The products you outlined, as well as XM/Sirius Radio, are not High Bow products, but that's my point, how come there aren't more of these types of sponsors still in the series?

The ALMS combined classes two years too late and you see the result.

With the 2011 regulations it just sealed the fate of Acura and Porsche chassis in LMP2. They will be forced to run LMP1 where they will have a chance outside of Sebring and Petit Le Mans. None of this short and twisty nature tracks are going to be used by the LMS or Inter Cup, so those chassis would only work in America for 7 of currently 9 races. You could win a ALMS Championship that way and as respected as this series is, there's some value in winning that, though you really do have to question the tactics of everybody but Muscle Milk and Highcroft. I can assure you right now, Greg Pickett will not be in the car at Petit Le Mans with a series Championship on the line as long as they are within single digits of Highcroft.

That is the only saving grace to this season in LMP

Edit:

I should add that De Ferran was open to continuing his LMP program. I am not sure how he wrote his sponsorship proposal, but its likely he wrote it with both Indy Car and ALMS on it. Cross promotion being his selling point. Also overall budgets would be saved considering in year 1 of the contract, you have two shared events (Long Beach and Mid Ohio) and by year 3 of a 3 year contract, you could have as many as 6 events shared with Indy Car (Detroit, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Sears Point, Baltimore and St Pete).

Whatever the case is, we have a weaken LMP class that was once just as strong and competitive as GT. I believe about 5-10 mins is devoted on GM and its Corvette Program during its lack duck status in the series. Again should have been killed at the end of 2008 if not sooner. You only had Jim Bell's pitiful effort with the Aston Martin on inferior tires and a Pro Am pay driver.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

No, but where are those sponsors today? How come Fernandez left? I am positive Lowe's would have continued sponsorship if they knew in advance they would get more TV time. They we're not shown as often (in 2009) because they were dominating LMP2 and Dyson's reliability woes are well documented.

So ahead of that and with the uncertainty in the economy, they reduced his budget. Obviously he (as a personal sponsor) has enough money to buy a seat with AMR, but not enough to continue his own operation.

The products you outlined, as well as XM/Sirius Radio, are not High Bow products, but that's my point, how come there aren't more of these types of sponsors still in the series?

The ALMS combined classes two years too late and you see the result.

With the 2011 regulations it just sealed the fate of Acura and Porsche chassis in LMP2. They will be forced to run LMP1 where they will have a chance outside of Sebring and Petit Le Mans. None of this short and twisty nature tracks are going to be used by the LMS or Inter Cup, so those chassis would only work in America for 7 of currently 9 races. You could win a ALMS Championship that way and as respected as this series is, there's some value in winning that, though you really do have to question the tactics of everybody but Muscle Milk and Highcroft. I can assure you right now, Greg Pickett will not be in the car at Petit Le Mans with a series Championship on the line as long as they are within single digits of Highcroft.

That is the only saving grace to this season in LMP

Talking in circles and obfuscating does not change the fact that the 'High Brow' argument is BS!!

And these certainties come rather hard and fast, with no evidence to substantiate them, other than opinion!

As to Pickett, the car is here because HE is a racer, I highly doubt he will step out at Petit.



L.P.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Talking in circles and obfuscating does not change the fact that the 'High Brow' argument is BS!!

And these certainties come rather hard and fast, with no evidence to substantiate them, other than opinion!

As to Pickett, the car is here because HE is a racer, I highly doubt he will step out at Petit.

L.P.

Investing 3 Million in Marketing Surveys and the result is obscure Swiss Watches, again, that's High Bow.

Because of the economy that has largely disappeared and none of the winning teams I think besides Penske had any fancy watches as a sponsor. I believe the Porsche's sported some TAG livery at some point. I also think Dyson has TAG as a sponsor, I could be wrong. (I didn't forget about Autocon, they are not worth mentioning)

At least most people have heard of TAG, its a fairly mainstream watch company despite watches starting at $500+

Who's talking in circles? Its the same argument, ALMS management has failed to correctly govern or promote its series. It looks like they might loose Mid-Ohio because its new owners aren't happy with the sanction fees. It can't be because turnout is bad or ALMS brings a bad element to the track. Yes I know when Honda was giving out free tickets to its employees at its Marysville Plant (I have actually been there before, driving trucks, Scotts has a plant there too), but turnout was good before and during that.

You keep screaming "Its the economy stupid" I say with companies left and right turning in positive reports this quarter and continued increases in productivity without hiring anybody new, the concern with those with fat pockets is unfounded, they are fine. We are now faced with a ROI model that needs to be addressed by ALMS management AND teams. Flying Lizard has by far the most effective "team store" to help them with revenue. This is likely while Flying Lizard is popular with the fans, even at Le Mans with firing free t-shirts in the crowd. They were doing this back when they first started, how come other teams aren't doing this kind of low level stuff?

Again I ask, is this Marketing 101?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Investing 3 Million in Marketing Surveys and the result is obscure Swiss Watches, again, that's High Bow.

Because of the economy that has largely disappeared and none of the winning teams I think besides Penske had any fancy watches as a sponsor. I believe the Porsche's sported some TAG livery at some point. I also think Dyson has TAG as a sponsor, I could be wrong. (I didn't forget about Autocon, they are not worth mentioning)

At least most people have heard of TAG, its a fairly mainstream watch company despite watches starting at $500+

Who's talking in circles? Its the same argument, ALMS management has failed to correctly govern or promote its series. It looks like they might loose Mid-Ohio because its new owners aren't happy with the sanction fees. It can't be because turnout is bad or ALMS brings a bad element to the track. Yes I know when Honda was giving out free tickets to its employees at its Marysville Plant (I have actually been there before, driving trucks, Scotts has a plant there too), but turnout was good before and during that.

You keep screaming "Its the economy stupid" I say with companies left and right turning in positive reports this quarter and continued increases in productivity without hiring anybody new, the concern with those with fat pockets is unfounded, they are fine. We are now faced with a ROI model that needs to be addressed by ALMS management AND teams. Flying Lizard has by far the most effective "team store" to help them with revenue. This is likely while Flying Lizard is popular with the fans, even at Le Mans with firing free t-shirts in the crowd. They were doing this back when they first started, how come other teams aren't doing this kind of low level stuff?

Again I ask, is this Marketing 101?

Yeah the economy is just freaking in stellar shape!

And once again this has been drug quite some ways from the reality of the ALMS in '10!






L.P.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Investing 3 Million in Marketing Surveys and the result is obscure Swiss Watches, again, that's High Bow.

Because of the economy that has largely disappeared and none of the winning teams I think besides Penske had any fancy watches as a sponsor. I believe the Porsche's sported some TAG livery at some point. I also think Dyson has TAG as a sponsor, I could be wrong. (I didn't forget about Autocon, they are not worth mentioning)

At least most people have heard of TAG, its a fairly mainstream watch company despite watches starting at $500+

Who's talking in circles? Its the same argument, ALMS management has failed to correctly govern or promote its series. It looks like they might loose Mid-Ohio because its new owners aren't happy with the sanction fees. It can't be because turnout is bad or ALMS brings a bad element to the track. Yes I know when Honda was giving out free tickets to its employees at its Marysville Plant (I have actually been there before, driving trucks, Scotts has a plant there too), but turnout was good before and during that.

You keep screaming "Its the economy stupid" I say with companies left and right turning in positive reports this quarter and continued increases in productivity without hiring anybody new, the concern with those with fat pockets is unfounded, they are fine. We are now faced with a ROI model that needs to be addressed by ALMS management AND teams. Flying Lizard has by far the most effective "team store" to help them with revenue. This is likely while Flying Lizard is popular with the fans, even at Le Mans with firing free t-shirts in the crowd. They were doing this back when they first started, how come other teams aren't doing this kind of low level stuff?

Again I ask, is this Marketing 101?

FWIW, most watch snobs don't care for Tags. It's not the ALMS but if you want to talk about obscure watches, have you priced a Rebellion?

Do you know why some companies are turning the corner (on paper)? Because they are not spending any money! They are not hiring and are working the **** out of their remaining employees to keep overhead low. Those of us that are lucky to be working right now are wearing down. Those that aren't as lucky are jealous. Things still suck.