ALMS 2011 Discussion

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I for one would be quite happy if Panoz Inc. told the ACO to stuff it, and sent them packing from their events and went their own way.

With what exactly? The 12 cars that will be there by 2013?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

With what exactly? The 12 cars that will be there by 2013?

You can be completely irrelevant, or attempt to make changes to become relevant again. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You can be completely irrelevant, or attempt to make changes to become relevant again. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

But what? What changes? Drop ACO and do what exactly?
I have heard IMSA Open class. Open class of what exactly? Protos?
GT3? GT4?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by skycafe

But what? What changes? Drop ACO and do what exactly?
I have heard IMSA Open class. Open class of what exactly? Protos?
GT3? GT4?

Open up the Prototype rules. Allow teams to modify the bodywork, open up the engine regs, allow V8's, make them loud, make them fast, allow older chassis to run without obsoleting them so quick.

In GT allow GT3's to run with GTE, with them equalized.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Open up the Prototype rules. Allow teams to modify the bodywork, open up the engine regs, allow V8's, make them loud, make them fast, allow older chassis to run without obsoleting them so quick.

In GT allow GT3's to run with GTE, with them equalized.

And then wait for the 10/10s crowd to call it a boring BoP-circus.

There, fixed it for you...

[Fogelhund]

Sure, a few posters on ten-tenths will *****, but then the 98% of the fans at the race won't even know there ever was BoP, and don't care. They just want to see lot's of fast, loud cars racing, with pro drivers, and pro teams.

[arakis]

once you introduce BoP, no respected manuf will enter into LMP with full on assault, same with GTE, so you would preaty much have grand am with somewhat preatier cars

[AndrewF31]

Think he only mentioned BoP for GT.
When you look at the GT championships in Europe, they're all BoP'd. BOP aside, I think GT Open, Blancpain and, to a small extent, GT3 Europe, have been entertaining.

Now, if Corvette (and Ferrari, etc.) would be happy to have it's GT2 Vette downsized to cope with GT3 cars, I don't know. Might as well make them all GT3s in that case. All these guys already have GT3 versions of their cars, even if the Corvette Z06s are not managed by Pratt & Miller, as far as I know.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by arakis

once you introduce BoP, no respected manuf will enter into LMP with full on assault, same with GTE, so you would preaty much have grand am with somewhat preatier cars

Are they doing that at all under the current ALMS rules though? The answer is no.

The move Fogelhund has suggested could kill the ALMS if it happens, but it could also save the ALMS. The one thing that angers me about the ALMS right now is unlike series such as NASCAR (new car 2013), Indycar (new car 2012), Grand Am (new car 2012, GT3) or even DTM (new car 2012, return of BMW), their (ALMS) series is in trouble but they dont seem to have a plan to fix this and ensure the series can survive in the future

[Deleted]

If that happens I would probably stop watching the series then, fed up with artificiality in other series already. GT3 would destroy all the racing that's left

Unfortunately what fogelhund said is true, most of the fans/casuals have absolute no idea how nearly everything gets decided by some committee in France or wherever

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Now, if Corvette (and Ferrari, etc.) would be happy to have it's GT2 Vette downsized to cope with GT3 cars, I don't know. Might as well make them all GT3s in that case. All these guys already have GT3 versions of their cars, even if the Corvette Z06s are not managed by Pratt & Miller, as far as I know.

Why on earth would they wanna do that?

Also as you said the current GT3 Corvettes have nothing to do with P&M, they're built by Callaway.

[arakis]

sorry I misunderstood his lmp idea, ok the lmp might work, but why would he want to change the only thing that works in the ALMS, the GT class, works, attracks huge manuf names and gets great racing, I am preaty sure its more popular then any other gt3 series so I dont get what the point of changing it into a gt3, unles downgrading manuf involvement and getting less people to watch is the point

[KA]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Are they doing that at all under the current ALMS rules though? The answer is no.

The move Fogelhund has suggested could kill the ALMS if it happens, but it could also save the ALMS. The one thing that angers me about the ALMS right now is unlike series such as NASCAR (new car 2013), Indycar (new car 2012), Grand Am (new car 2012, GT3) or even DTM (new car 2012, return of BMW), their (ALMS) series is in trouble but they dont seem to have a plan to fix this and ensure the series can survive in the future

I think you've hit a big issue there- ALMS should have been working to fix it's problems several years ago, but didn't- and now it's getting towards the point where it's kill or cure time.

Yes, what Fogelhund is suggesting could save the ALMS- but it could also lead to a whole bunch of ALMS teams going out and buying Daytona Prototypes, or Grand-Am-spec 458s and Audis.

Playing devil's advocate here a bit, but could moving to a situation where ALMS/IMSA has a unique USA-focused rulebook with little connection to what's happening elsewhere in the world just put it straight into a fight to the death against a certain other sportscar series with a unique USA-focused rulebook....? CART vs Indycar- the sequel?

[Fogelhund]

Except for those series that run single engines (Indy), or single engine specification rules (such as F1), every series in the world with differing engines does BoP.

The ACO does BoP for every category to some degree, though they don't often make many modifications during the season. Restrictors, boost allowances, fuel mixtures, weights, fuel capacity are all variables that the ACO uses to ensure that the Diesels have an advantage... oops, I meant to ensure that all engine possibilities are equal.

Keep in mind that I am not proposing new build cars, but simply accepting those that are accepted around the world already (or those that have recently been grandfathered out), and being more accomodating. Oh, I'd probably open up the restrictors some, to bring the cars back to the speeds of a few years ago.....

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by arakis

once you introduce BoP, no respected manuf will enter into LMP with full on assault, same with GTE,

Well, what Audi has done this year in GT3 is pretty close to a full on factory assault, isn't it? Especially at the Ring and Spa, but also in the BES and Bathurst.

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Except for those series that run single engines (Indy), or single engine specification rules (such as F1), every series in the world with differing engines does BoP.

The ACO does BoP for every category to some degree, though they don't often make many modifications during the season. Restrictors, boost allowances, fuel mixtures, weights, fuel capacity are all variables that the ACO uses to ensure that the Diesels have an advantage... oops, I meant to ensure that all engine possibilities are equal.

Bingo. As much as most hate on the GT3 series, has everyone forgot about the constant arguments about BMWs restrictors, and Corvette's waivers, etc. yadda yadda? It's all a type of BoP.

And in even Protos have some balancing. One of the big problems of non-BoPing is:

- Money - we're not in a financial framework right now where you could open up the doors and tell the teams "it's up to you to find the best car to win". With some many companies in financial difficulty, you run the risk of having very few manufacturers capable and able to compete

- Safety - Ya, we all want the good ol' days. Sure thing. But maybe you're willing to watch drivers risk their lives for 'our' entertainment with long straights, etc, but most drivers may disagree deep down, even if some will let the adrenaline rush to their head and scream "give me speeed!!" (not the drug! )

And, of course, correlated to it all is entertainment for the casual fan. Half the people who go to a circuit, will get bored after 30 minutes if the leader is almost 1 lap ahead and no hope of a fight is possible...

[arakis]

ACO in the gte class uses a very differnt version of BoP then FIA

FIA BoP01.

gets all the cars tests them and equalises them before the season starts, and if something is missed it is instantly corected, trying to achive a perfect balance, and totaly stargeling any kind of development.

ACO BoP.
first and formost a set of rules is in place, different engines get
different restrictors.
second a 0.5% rule is in place, alowing anyone that is below 0.5% of the fastest cars to be alowed restrictor, gurney and weight breaks. but only in so much as it keeps the cars within 0.5%. thus alowing Manufacturers to influance thier cars speed and championship victory.


and with the alms safty car rules you are preaty much garantierd 60% of the field will remain within a few seconds even after 10h of racing, if no accidents/reliability issues come into play.
simply put GTE class is semi open, while gt3 is almost stock car

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, what Audi has done this year in GT3 is pretty close to a full on factory assault, isn't it? Especially at the Ring and Spa, but also in the BES and Bathurst.

they are simply taking addvantige that no other manuf is doing that, with the exception of the 'Ring

actually AUDI's effort is the absolute prof anyone need why BoPed series are a bad idea, I am not trying to start any conspiricy theories, but since ady went full on this year in gt3 there were some serius BoP issues with their cars getting some sreius help, they have the largest restrictors, largest fuel tank, etc etc..,

As long a regulating body is not controlled by rules but by their own whim, we will get questionable desicios going toward a manu with a lot of cash to burn toward the series

[Deleted]

[/end of argument]

[JAG]

There's no shortage of ACO LMP's or GT's the shortage is funded teams.

Muscle Milk are in the market for a P1 and can buy off-the-shelf from Lola, ORECA, HPD etc., options with a second hand market beyond the ALMS.

As for eligibilty, the series will do all they can to help, Dyson's Lola's run a hybrid of P1/P2 specs.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

I must admit the WEC is having a greater effect on other series than I envisaged and can no longer be seen as the ILMC with new branding. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing as the WEC needs to amount to more than a token effort.

The LMS and ALMS needed to address long standing issues, the LMS has made their move, now the ALMS' decisions could fundamentally change their series.

I know we argued about it a great deal, and I agreed with you that the ALMS certainly made enough mistakes/errors/lack of progress on their own, but it was clear from the beginning that the WEC marked the end of Factory participation in the individual series... at least at the top.

Sure there are available chassis to purchase now, and engines. The reason that I mentioned opening them up, was I think most of the fans want to continue to see and hear the V12 Aston type engines, of big V8's in Proto's. The ACO has eliminated them.

I appreciate opening up the rules isn't a magic pill.

Throwing out the WEC, means either they go to stand alone races in the US, without a support field... and I'm not so certain how popular a 6 hour WEC race is at Austin Texas, with 25-30 cars, when it has no history. Frankly, I don't think the WEC will be in North America for long, if you turf it from the ALMS races.

Now you are back in a position, that if you want to run in North America, you have to run with IMSA, and simply change things to full season entries only for factories (you would be flexible on that for privateers).

Of course then you need to fix the visibility, the ROI, etc... all of which requires a giant change in direction from the blathering on about Green right now.

The bottom line, is it doesn't seem like anybody is acting like something is wrong in Braselburg, and they continue wasting time with relationships and promotions that do nothing to further the sport. They've never listened to anything that anyone has said to them before, particularly not on message boards, and I don't expect them to now.

The one thing I think we can agree on, is that the series is in trouble from the perspective of having interesting entrants, that lend credibility to the series. Lose a Risi after this year (probable), and BWM next year (highly probable), and you've really got a dogs breakfast. Something needs to be done...

[DS"]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Are they doing that at all under the current ALMS rules though? The answer is no.

The move Fogelhund has suggested could kill the ALMS if it happens, but it could also save the ALMS. The one thing that angers me about the ALMS right now is unlike series such as NASCAR (new car 2013), Indycar (new car 2012), Grand Am (new car 2012, GT3) or even DTM (new car 2012, return of BMW), their (ALMS) series is in trouble but they dont seem to have a plan to fix this and ensure the series can survive in the future

On the other hand, everything the ALMS could do might be wrong in so many places. Like allowing GT3 cars to run. This could **** off GTE-Teams. Or allowing something akin to GT4, then fans will complain that they are only there to fill the field or such.

As I said in the "Future of American Sportscar Racing"-Thread, it would be the best if Grand-AM and IMSA start to cooperate with each other, to ensure the survival of both series. Sadly, pigs will rather fly than IMSA and Grand-AM talking with each other.

[arakis]

pigs can and have already flown. as documented with this porky in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b31O4FmljGY

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Open up the Prototype rules. Allow teams to modify the bodywork, open up the engine regs, allow V8's, make them loud, make them fast, allow older chassis to run without obsoleting them so quick.

This is worth repeating because it is exactly how I feel, with the most important points highlighted.

[arakis]

i dont think it would work, even if they suceed in equalising different petrol engine sizes, the huge american V8 would still use fuel like it still cost 10c a gallon