What is Aston Martin up to?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Maybe I missed something, but in the 2011 Le Mans event, there was no prize for '1st Petrol'... so why would that even be an aim of a works Aston Martin/Prodrive program??

I understand why a private team like Pescarolo may choose proven petrol power.. but for a new signature car, with the carmaker's name all over it... odd!

Also odd is their choice not to use Knighty's 'option one' antilag system... yes it burns fuel if not well set up, but is an off the shelf item from the likes of MoTeC... is that kind of technology not cutting edge enough for these guys?

Too weird...

Quite agree - diesel cars and associated technology are core to Audi and Peugeot product range, thus it makes perfect sense for them to race a diesel LMP1. Clearly Aston Martin can't do this and must believe that the old 'performance balancing' would make a petrol competitive (which they weren't).

More of a puzzle is why AMR would go to the expense of LMP1 when their market is GT which they seem to have handed over to customer teams to compete in and they would never have the budget to compete with Audi and Peugeot anyway.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Quite agree - diesel cars and associated technology are core to Audi and Peugeot product range, thus it makes perfect sense for them to race a diesel LMP1. Clearly Aston Martin can't do this and must believe that the old 'performance balancing' would make a petrol competitive (which they weren't).

More of a puzzle is why AMR would go to the expense of LMP1 when their market is GT which they seem to have handed over to customer teams to compete in and they would never have the budget to compete with Audi and Peugeot anyway.

but then again they also dont heave the budget of michelotto and porsche either, nor as good as a road car

[godlameroso]

I'll go as far to say that their chassis is good, it's their engine that straight blows in more ways than one. They had to make a brand new engine, this alone would be a nightmare for most car manufacturers, let alone a smaller company like AM. Perhaps the restrictor interferes with the way the car produces and holds boost pressure. If the old school Nissan RB26 could rev to 8,000rpm I'm sure a smaller 2.0 could go higher reliably. The problem is the turbo, the turbine they have chosen isn't very efficient with the restrictor. Sometimes a turbine that appears peaky on paper is completely different when forced to breathe through a restrictor, and vice versa.

I remember this old Mitsubishi rally car I was helping a buddy with. When we took off the turbo, we noticed the a/r, and upon referencing it with Garret's own pressure maps, it seemed like a completely inefficient turbo for the power band of the car. So we ran the car, and as predicted it was horrible, the turbo would have the most violent onslaught and would only hold max boost for 1,500 rpm after spool, which was at around 4,400, no amount of tuning would help. Then we tried it again but this time with the restrictor that the car came with. We had to retune the ecu, but even with a baseline tune the difference was night and day. Sure the restrictor limited the overall power to about 320'ish wheel hp, but the powerband had changed dramatically. Now we were getting full boost at 3,200rpm up to 5,800, and tapering off to redline @ 7,000. So perhaps they need to pick a different turbo.

Most turbo engines aren't made for maximum thermal efficiency, they're made to take boost, lots of it. I think AMR tried to make too many compromises with their engine.

If I were them, I would use a larger compressor. I would also have two separate exhaust manifolds feeding the turbine individually. Instead of lining up six exhaust pulses you would only be doing it for three, and this would improve the exhaust gas TE.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

More of a puzzle is why AMR would go to the expense of LMP1 when their market is GT which they seem to have handed over to customer teams to compete in and they would never have the budget to compete with Audi and Peugeot anyway.

The very reason this thread is so long, albeit filled with criticism and negativity, publicity.

The GTE Vantage had a similar troubled start, yet garnered a handful of posts.

Likewise, the RSR Jaguar program, after initial interest, has slipped off the radar, if they were in P1, interest and comment would be relentless.

That's not to say the AMR-One's struggles can continue indenfinately, with their reputation remaining intact.

[canam]

AMR racing is like any other privateer manufacturing effort--except they can leverage the Aston Martin brand name to raise funding. Other privateers (Pesca, Oreca, Courage, Creation, Zytek, Embassy, Radical) never had that additional feature--and all of these entities launched their new cars infinitely more successfully--with podiums, finishes etc. Yes, they all leased motors externally--apart from Zytek.

The fact that AMR One is such a "dog" may seriously damage AMR's ability to raise further funds for a prototype programme and, realistically, it ought to be damaged.

It will be very hard to 'sell' any further investment to the 'investors' in this project.

We know the engine needs work--a lot of it. That will take a lot of time and money--and the results may be unpredictable.

Despite all the chat about the chassis, we really don't know how good it is. The car is too slow to make any real judgement. They ought to drop in an engine of known power (like Bentley did with a 3.8 Nicholson McLaren Cossie) to see how good the chassis really is. There is work involved but it can be done at a modest cost (belhousing, mounts, exhaust routing) and, at least, AMR will know if the chassis is any good. I suspect that it, too, is a dog.

I think AMR will resist this as it will definitely put an end to the project. By blaming the engine for everything, there is hope. If the chassis stinks, the project will get binned.

[AstonGeoff]

I think we should all take a breather here and let AMR work on the engine and chassis and, hopefully, return to the fray at Silverstone in September.

If it's still the "dog" that everyone seems to think it is then maybe it's time for AMR rethink the engine or chassis or both, but let's face it they are not very far down the development path and have done pretty much all of their testing in the public eye. If we compared the man hours and testing hours that Audi and Pug (and they had a history with LMP1) do then AMR are probably only a couple of weeks in compared to the months and months that Audi and Pug have done!

As an aside (and OT) is it time for a LMP1.5 class that sits between LMP1 (for the big boys) and LMP2 (for the true privateers), giving the likes of AMR, Rebellion, Pesca, et al at least a chance of a class win?

[MitchZ06]

LMP1-Petrol is what that class should be.

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

LMP1-Petrol is what that class should be.

Not necessarily, if a big manufacturer, like for example Toyota, decided to throw huge amounts of money at a petrol hybrid then I've no doubt it would be on the pace of the Audis and Pugs.

[Fogelhund]

So how does one qualify for 1.5? I mean Aston is technically a constructor, so wouldn't the Pesca's etc. have reason to suggest that there needs to be a 1.75 for them, so they don't have to compete against Aston money?

There is one class, LMP1. Compete, or don't.

If you can't, try LMP2 or GT.

[Audi Racer]

Considering that that would require a complete rewrite of the rules because the Petrols have been given perforamance breaks to catch up to the diesel and now suddenly the diesels dont matter?

Henri Pescarolo doesnt come to finish second. 2005 was such a heart break. The 05 pescarolo was on the order of 3-4 seconds faster than the Audi but reliablilty issues crept in.

[JAG]

The time to judge Pescarolo, and much of the privateer field, is when they run new chassis.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by JAG

The time to judge Pescarolo, and much of the privateer field, is when they run new chassis.

Yes. Thats why im a little bit suspicious of the cat and mouse that toyota are playing. They may have duped us all. how convenient of them to run a toyota engein in a rebellion to show the ACO they interested. Now the ACO is going to really try to close the pertrol diesel gap even though its old petrols vs new diesels.

Heres how this works for toyota. When they build their new LMP1, not if, but when theyll swoop in having taken advantage of the engine regs for petrols beeing given giant restrictors and win Lemans. Im all for it though. i mtired of Audi and Peugeot havig it all their way. Let Toyota stick it to them.

[canam]

Why is there such delusion when we enter the Petrol vs Diesel debate.

On current regs, Diesel wins. If a big manufacturer comes in and provides a fleet of cars to the ACO, builds large buildings in the track area, resurfaces the road and constructs a factory in the Sartre THEN the petrol regs may move to a balance. Right now, the ACO could not care less about the 'Petrol "Class"'. They had a great race in 2011 and more people watching and through the gate. Why is change needed?

They don't give a 'monkeys'! about the so-called petrol class.

Proper manufacturers know the score. The regs need to change for a Petrol car to have a chance. that is why they are still on the sidelines.

DR will not have the leverage to make the ACO change its approach

[Tim the Grey]

There Is an existing Petrol class. Trussers invented it, a while back. LMP1bis...

AMR will get what they want by being where they are right now.
Racing at Le Mans. That is all that matters.
They get a tidy Hostility Unit just down from Ford Chicane, champagne, and DPR on tap, and Invited Glitterati who aren't THAT fussed about the actual race.

It works for them!

As to their woes at LM. I thought it telling that Thursday Night Practice, they still hadn't got the pit wall timing booth up. This is AMR/Prodrive, to whom this is second nature. From the lack of manpower to erect a simple booth, I took it to mean the cars were in DEEP trouble. In practice, they were fine. They ran, if slowly, and from trackside, sounded fabulous. Come raceday it all fell apart. Due to a change from a pulley that cracked, to something beefier, that broke, at a guess, half the car.

Too late to get the green light, not enough funding for rapid development, and perhaps, too ambitious a project? I don't know, I'm just sad it's not working.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by canam

Why is there such delusion when we enter the Petrol vs Diesel debate.

On current regs, Diesel wins. If a big manufacturer comes in and provides a fleet of cars to the ACO, builds large buildings in the track area, resurfaces the road and constructs a factory in the Sartre THEN the petrol regs may move to a balance. Right now, the ACO could not care less about the 'Petrol "Class"'. They had a great race in 2011 and more people watching and through the gate. Why is change needed?

They don't give a 'monkeys'! about the so-called petrol class.

Proper manufacturers know the score. The regs need to change for a Petrol car to have a chance. that is why they are still on the sidelines.

DR will not have the leverage to make the ACO change its approach

?

i think they don't care about the petrol class because its a bunch of privateer teams.

I think that if Toyota or Nissan joins P1. That is the impetus that the ACO is waiting for before they change the rules.

Audi and Peugeot do not want to be slower than Pescarolo and Rebellion. If the ACO lets that happen, Audi and Peugeot will leave.

Audi and Peugeot will not leave if they lose to factory Toyota or Factory Nissan. theyll just come back and try to beat them again. Thats why Peugeot keeps coming back....To beat Audi.


I think The lack of a true petrol manufacturer is the reason the ACO won't fix the performance balancing.

i also think that If a true petrol manufacturer joins LMP1 the ACO will promptly cut the diesel advantage to nothing.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by JAG

The time to judge Pescarolo, and much of the privateer field, is when they run new chassis.

Well, Signatech, Oreca, PeCOM, and Race Performane all had a completely new for 2011 chassis/engine combination and qualified in front of the mighty AMR One as well as of course a better race run, only difference is that those were LMP2 teams.

Not to mention all the work Rebellion put in over the offseason, which resulted in a solid race for the #12 car, as well as OAK Racing a 2011 updated Pesca with a new engine package.

[MitchZ06]

Maybe they got the crew from Top Gear to subcontract the engine work? You their saying, ambitious but rubbish!

[MitchZ06]

They won't cut it down to nothing if a serious factory team enters a petrol P1 car. They'd promptly lose all credibility and become a joke of a governing body and pretty much open the door for teams to give them a royal *******ing since their Audi/Peugeot favoritism will become so obvious. Expect a regulation adjustment to be a gradual thing if the ACO is smart about keeping their reputation intact.

[Tim the Grey]

Excuse me...
Commercial Reality.
Not Favouritism!

I return you to your thread.

[AGD]

With all the resources and subsequent development that Audi and Peugeot do, they could be several seconds a lap faster than the privateer petrols even with "balanced" rules. If that is the case, I don't think Audi and Peugeot would really care if they are only 6 seconds a lap faster than 8 or 9 lets just say. It's still quite possible IMO that the rules are favorable for petrol runners currently.

[The Badger]

And so do I .

[Tim the Grey]

Are we in danger of being within VIEW of the topic, yet???

[The Badger]

Hardly .

[MitchZ06]

Its the new 'Kinetic' styling Ford has been going with since 2008....

[dank]

Aren't some of these positions for the Mini rally project though?