The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[CTD]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

speaking the truth i follow le mans race since 2009 and yes, under some point of view i can agree with you, even if i think that is more a set-up choice than strategy. For strategy of race i mean other, and repeat actually in endurance scenario there isn't anymore a race strategy because the only one now is: push push push.

No. The Peugeot Audi battle has always been a battle on strategy. From 2008-2010, Peugeot went for pure speed (push-push-push, as you call it) where Audi has from 2005-2010 been going after less time in the pit (ei better fuel consumption and fewer race incidents). In 2011 the strategies clearly switched, as Peugeot choose to race after fewer pit stops and Audi for all out speed. Peugeot was able to run Audis speeds but at the cost of a lap per stint.
So strategy is very much still in place at Le Mans, eventhough there is normaly a team who go full out!

[alexkiller8]

well, i think that we have a different point of view for the word "race strategy". I partially agree with you, but the overall race strategy in my opinion is not just the pre-race decision to start with a more aggressive approach or a more conservative one.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

If they retire at Le Mans, then they have effectively lost the WEC already. Le Mans is double points and you have to get to the finish to score points.

Haven't they basically lost the WEC already anyways due to skipping Spa?

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Haven't they basically lost the WEC already anyways due to skipping Spa?

no because of the 6 best result rule, they now have to run in all remaining WEC races... but this doesn't change a thing in my opinion, because an audi car for sure will win all races obtaining 175 points (+6 or +8 possible points for pole position) while toyota in my opinion will reach around 100 points or something more if they will score a podium at le mans, or less than 80 points if audi will decide to use 3 cars in all races, giving less chance to toyota to finish in podium.

[gwyllion]

Davidson showed up at Spa for the photo shoot, but he is not participating in today's test session at Magny-Cours.

Originally Posted by @antdavidson

A morning session on the @MercedesAMGF1 simulator today before heading to London for the @SkySportsF1 #f1show tonight!

Lapierre did join the test.

Originally Posted by @nico_lapierre

Nice test @MagnyCoursTrack ...heading back home. I will watch Spa from the sofa : ( come on @loicduval last time I will support you !

[Simmi]

Just going back the comments earlier regarding customer teams running hybrid tech.

Does anyone else find it encouraging that Kinoshlta said "it may take three or four years before we can provide the system to our customers."

That, to me at least, implies long-term involvement on their end.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Just going back the comments earlier regarding customer teams running hybrid tech.

Does anyone else find it encouraging that Kinoshlta said "it may take three or four years before we can provide the system to our customers."

That, to me at least, implies long-term involvement on their end.

Most likely.
But it could also be interpreted has how advanced the technology is.
Like that the Hybrid technology is at such an advanced point, it would not work as a sellable package without hours of counseling to make it work!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

no because of the 6 best result rule, they now have to run in all remaining WEC races... but this doesn't change a thing in my opinion, because an audi car for sure will win all races obtaining 175 points (+6 or +8 possible points for pole position) while toyota in my opinion will reach around 100 points or something more if they will score a podium at le mans, or less than 80 points if audi will decide to use 3 cars in all races, giving less chance to toyota to finish in podium.

Audi will win 'for sure' every round Toyota participates in? Think you're jumping the gun. Not every race is 24 hours. If they can be reliable for even half the distance of LeMans and "run ahead of Audi" as Vasselon says, they should be in good shape to win. Remember, Audi 'only' won LeMans for more than year against Peugeot. I say only but that's the most important win, of course. My point is you act as if they're unbeatable, when proven otherwise. I don't think Toyota will be like Peugeot and win every race bar LeMans, but I don't think Audi will win every race including it.

Another topic- Ishiura won quite the race in SGT yesterday. He was the fastest man on track late in the race in mixed conditions. And before that, Nakajima won the opening round of Formula Nippon. Seems like their Japanese drivers are out to a good start even before they step into the TS030.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by TF110

Audi will win 'for sure' every round Toyota participates in? Think you're jumping the gun. Not every race is 24 hours. If they can be reliable for even half the distance of LeMans and "run ahead of Audi" as Vasselon says, they should be in good shape to win. Remember, Audi 'only' won LeMans for more than year against Peugeot. I say only but that's the most important win, of course. My point is you act as if they're unbeatable, when proven otherwise. I don't think Toyota will be like Peugeot and win every race bar LeMans, but I don't think Audi will win every race including it.

Another topic- Ishiura won quite the race in SGT yesterday. He was the fastest man on track late in the race in mixed conditions. And before that, Nakajima won the opening round of Formula Nippon. Seems like their Japanese drivers are out to a good start even before they step into the TS030.

sincerly 2012 can't be compared with 2011, peugeot won 6 ILMC races because IMHO the 908 car and drivers were much better the r18 and audi drivers, they didn't win at le mans because audi used a better set-up. This year the things are different, as toyota it self says, the 2012 season for them is a in-race development year, so, ever IMHO ts030 for now simply can't beat r18 in standard conditions.

[TF110]

We'll see. I don't think Audi's drivers were outclassed. I think Audi itself was outclassed by Peugeot's car, one that hadn't changed much (besides engine) in it's whole lifetime.

[Mal]

Toyota may surprise and win a race this year and even show real pace against the Audi, but anyone who seriously thinks they will take the WEC title is IMO mistaken.

[Adam43]

Toyota are tweeting that they have completed a functionality test. This can mean only one thing - they will challenge at Le Mans this year.
They have also said that Wurz and Lapierre completed 81 laps with the latest updates. Which means that they are building their fifth chassis which will be at Mallory on Wednesday.

[aneesh99]

Tbh, I'm going with Hindy on this one, they can't contend for the win at Le Mans, not to say they can't in the rest of WEC, but yeah. Audi proved how much it mattered in 2009, and if Audi of all people couldn't make it happen, Toyota aren't.

Originally Posted by TF110

Maybe we will see Rebellion running future Toyota hybrid power? That'd be good. Can't wait to see how this thing goes.

Maybe we could see them as a satellite team running the TS030 or whatever when the hybrid system is available non-factory teams?

[gwyllion]

Short report, basically repeating the tweets that Adam43 mentions: http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/su...toyota-racing/

[lms]

at e-info there is an interview with Pascal Vasselon and he says that the car seen at Spa "did not yet have all the latest details". interesting

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-10581.html

[Simmi]

Lots of info in that interview.

Is that the first public omission about what caused the testing crash. Water getting into the electrics and it affecting the braking process. I heard GG mention it was a water issue this morning in warm-up.

It also really sounds like they are struggling to have that second car there on test day. And if the other car crashes hard between now and then they are not going to be able to race it.

[gwyllion]

The cause of the crash was already revealed in http://www.lemans.org/en/races/fia-w...elon_6748.html and http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120411/ALMS/120419977.

Have you identified the problem experienced by Nicolas Lapierre?

"The cause of the incident was detected immediately. We were driving in conditions of heavy rain to test the car in the wet. Unfortunately, an electronic unit let in water, which caused the accident. We need to work on sealing the electronics, but nothing insurmountable. "

However, the EI article gives a much more detailed explanation of the incident. Pretty amazing that the tub was unrepairable by a 100 km/h crash

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Rennen

BTW some pages back someone posted guessed manufacturing times for constructing a Carbon Chassis...I've now heard how long it actually takes and it's many, many, many more weeks more than what was suggested!

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Which post are you referring to?

• #2327: 6+ weeks for Oreca and OAK
• #2331: 22 days for Cadillac LMP900
• #2423: 6 weeks for Peugeot 908

Okay, Vasselon explains in http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-10581.html that Toyota can only produce one monocoque at a time and that it takes them 10 weeks

They had to rush the completion of the new monocoque and its is exactly the same as the first. So no modifications (performance, reinforcements) like some have suggested.

[Acid09]

They plan to run another two 24h tests and don't have a chassis to spare?

Damn, that all sounds incredibly tight. We heard about Peugeots shortages before Le Mans after their crashes but this is something else.

Hopefully they can pull it off.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Okay, Vasselon explains in http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-10581.html that Toyota can only produce one monocoque at a time and that it takes them 10 weeks

They had to rush the completion of the new monocoque and its is exactly the same as the first. So no modifications (performance, reinforcements) like some have suggested.

Hopefully people will stop throwing around 'biggest manufacturer in the world' claims now we know the limitations they are working under.

[TF110]

Basically because it's not a full-on project with huge factory support just yet. If they can only make one at a time, obviously someone or something else is going on at TMG, or they only have limited personnel. Good to hear that the car shown in Spa isn't even the final aero package. Seems the crash damaged the suspension and forced it through the monocoque, ouch!

[gwyllion]

@TF110: Did you read the part of the interview in which Vasselon explains that they can only recover 500 kJ with heavy braking and not with short braking? So the Toyota system has the same limitation as the Audi solution

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Basically because it's not a full-on project with huge factory support just yet. If they can only make one at a time, obviously someone or something else is going on at TMG, or they only have limited personnel. Good to hear that the car shown in Spa isn't even the final aero package. Seems the crash damaged the suspension and forced it through the monocoque, ouch!

This has been explained before why they are only able to build one at the time.
1. You just don't go hire a whole team of carbon builders in 1 month and put them to build a tub immediately.
2. Carbon is a material which you order sometime in advance (some people talk about a shortage), and if you can't get the Carbon, you can't build the tub .

So it isn't necessarily because something else is going on, it's more that TMG isn't geared for the job of 2 cars yet.
Or in more fancy words, TMG can't supply what Toyota/Oreca demands.

Honestly i'm a bit stuck, as it's very unprofessionally of Toyota not being able to fulfill their plans properly (ei. having a spare chassis at all time), but the reason Toyota can't fulfill it, is that they stepped up from their original plan, and pushed the facilities they have to the max, without being able to improve the facilities (ei. hiring more people and getting more CF), to save the WEC.

[TF110]

I'm talking about the fact of being able to build only one car at a time. Regardless of whether they have enough material or not. To my knowledge the facilities are big enough for multiple projects to go on at once. Not sure if that's two autoclaves or what, but to me it means they have a small workforce dedicated towards this project right now, and/or someone else is using their facilities as well (which has been said before).

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

@TF110: Did you read the part of the interview in which Vasselon explains that they can only recover 500 kJ with heavy braking and not with short braking? So the Toyota system has the same limitation as the Audi solution

"LeMans lends itself very well to this..." as he said. So recovering that amount of energy on each brake zone there (within reason) doesn't seem out of question. It's funny, because you say 'heavy braking', but then he says they could store twice as much if they were allowed. And when asked about 'small braking' he says "not yet"