The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

I'm talking about the fact of being able to build only one car at a time. Regardless of whether they have enough material or not. To my knowledge the facilities are big enough for multiple projects to go on at once. Not sure if that's two autoclaves or what, but to me it means they have a small workforce dedicated towards this project right now, and/or someone else is using their facilities as well (which has been said before).

Well, thats one of my points. The workforce isn't there to use the facilities.
You just don't hire people and put them to build the tubs, that takes time, and time is what Toyota doesn't have! .
But it's a combination of Toyota not having the workers and not having ordered enough CF to build the tubs fast enough.

[TF110]

You can't really blame them. The project was accelerated to 'save' the WEC when Peugeot dropped out. I'm agreeing with you about the personnel, just speculating that there's possibly another project going on, or someone is leasing out part of their facilities. That may be another reason in addition to the limited amount of people. Just a guess.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

You can't really blame them. The project was accelerated to 'save' the WEC when Peugeot dropped out. I'm agreeing with you about the personnel, just speculating that there's possibly another project going on, or someone is leasing out part of their facilities. That may be another reason in addition to the limited amount of people. Just a guess.

Did you read my previous post :

Originally Posted by CTD

Honestly i'm a bit stuck, as it's very unprofessionally of Toyota not being able to fulfill their plans properly (ei. having a spare chassis at all time), but the reason Toyota can't fulfill it, is that they stepped up from their original plan, and pushed the facilities they have to the max, without being able to improve the facilities (ei. hiring more people and getting more CF), to save the WEC.

I don't blame Toyota, as they where put in a tough situation, but they have failed more or less by announcing plans they can't live up to .

I don't think there necessarily is another project, TMG might just be kept on a minimum of personnel, and the space not need either stands empty or is leased to someone else. But yes, hard to say. All we know is that they are limited in personnel and in CF supplies, and without those things, you will get nowhere no matter what

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

"LeMans lends itself very well to this..." as he said. So recovering that amount of energy on each brake zone there (within reason) doesn't seem out of question. It's funny, because you say 'heavy braking', but then he says they could store twice as much if they were allowed. And when asked about 'small braking' he says "not yet"

This is getting very annoying.

Sometime ago you were shouting how inferior the Audi system was because they could not always recover 500 kJ. Now Vasselon explicitly states that the Toyota system can also not be fully charged with short braking.

Vasselon gives a thorough explanation about sizing the power output of the electric motors. Storage of a lot of energy is not difficult (just use a battery). The problem is recovering it in (very) short period of time. For that you need a storage medium with a high power and very powerful electric motors. Like I explained in the past: in order to recover 500 kJ in only 1 sec, you would need a 500 kW electric motor and to recover 1 MJ in such short time, even 1000 kW!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

I don't think there necessarily is another project, TMG might just be kept on a minimum of personnel, and the space not need either stands empty or is leased to someone else. But yes, hard to say. All we know is that they are limited in personnel and in CF supplies, and without those things, you will get nowhere no matter what

I agree with CTD.

TMG has all the equipment in their composite department (2 large + 1 small autoclaves) from their F1 days. However, they do not have that many customers, so they have a small staff. Toyota decided to do most of the manufacturing of the TS030 program in house, to keep their manufacturing department busy and also to keep the cost down. The downside is that this leads much longer production times and very limited flexibility in case of unplanned work (i.e. the destroyed tub).

[gwyllion]

In the interview Vasselon stated that he does not believe that front wheel hybrid system has an advantage in wet condition. Audi is proving him wrong at the moment

[Articus]

Sam Collins tweets that they did infact update the Tub. Removing the holes for the front drive shafts for one as one confirmed change.

[gwyllion]

That completely contradicts what Vasselon told in http://www.86400.fr/articles/220-pas...oit-a-lerreurq.

Did you have the opportunity to change parts of the monocoque?
"No, we had absolutely no time for that. We absolutely had to rush to finish the new monocoque so it will be exactly the same."

...
So you actually tried the [hybrid] system at the front?
"Yes, absolutely. Moreover, if we make mods on the monocoque for 2013, priority will be to remove the attachment of electric motors in the front ..."

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Short report, basically repeating the tweets that Adam43 mentions: http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/su...toyota-racing/

No mention of Mallory though, how odd.

[Articus]

RacecarEngineer Racecar Engineering
@specutainment the TS030 tub is different, the front suspension pickups have moved and the hole for the driveshafts have gone.

/

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This is getting very annoying.

Sometime ago you were shouting how inferior the Audi system was because they could not always recover 500 kJ. Now Vasselon explicitly states that the Toyota system can also not be fully charged with short braking.

Vasselon gives a thorough explanation about sizing the power output of the electric motors. Storage of a lot of energy is not difficult (just use a battery). The problem is recovering it in (very) short period of time. For that you need a storage medium with a high power and very powerful electric motors. Like I explained in the past: in order to recover 500 kJ in only 1 sec, you would need a 500 kW electric motor and to recover 1 MJ in such short time, even 1000 kW!

First, I don't shout, I just type. I'm only being literal because you're taking my posts in that way. I do believe Audi's system is inferior to Toyota's, but I didn't claim they could restore all of their 500kj in every single braking zone. At LeMans is what I meant. You took it literally. Just like you took the last post literally. I don't see how it's annoying when I post. What you should realize is to not take everything I'm saying so exactly. I have my reasons to believe what I'm pointing out. I don't think they could restore all that energy by just a one second braking zone. But in my last comment I said "at LeMans..." so I thought you'd realize this is what I'm speaking of. The brake zones there are long enough to restore the energy. But read between the lines, he speaks of double the storage possible in these braking zones. So it's reason to believe even in the shallow brake zones they can almost come close to restoring the 500kj.

[TF110]

In this article http://blog.toyota.eu/2012/05/04/toy...y-to-spa-rkle/ it says the TMG staff equals 250 employees. A short video of the updated car in France pitting- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dSsg...ature=youtu.be

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

In this article http://blog.toyota.eu/2012/05/04/toy...y-to-spa-rkle/ it says the TMG staff equals 250 employees. A short video of the updated car in France pitting- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dSsg...ature=youtu.be

Which is very few!
Just think of how much the administration takes of those 250 people.
How many where they at Peugoet?

[Acid09]

Around 400 if I remember correctly.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TF110

First, I don't shout, I just type.

I don't think gwyllion meant shouting literally, probably more like 'banging on'.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

First, I don't shout, I just type. I'm only being literal because you're taking my posts in that way. I do believe Audi's system is inferior to Toyota's, but I didn't claim they could restore all of their 500kj in every single braking zone.

You should not take me too literal either when I wrote that you shout. Maybe "banging on" would have been a better choice of words. Anyway you have repeatedly stated (without convincing evidence) that the Toyota hybrid system is superior.

Let me remind you of some posts that you wrote in the past.

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think Audi's Hybrids will be as good as Toyota's to be honest. Their regular R18's may be faster, but I feel the Toyota's Hybrid's will be the best of those types of P1's. I guess we'll see at Spa.

Originally Posted by TF110

I'd be amazed if Audi's hybrid system is better than Toyota's. Considering the system has been in development for at least 5 years now.

Originally Posted by TF110

Audi can't use their 'quattro' hybrid power at all the turns. Toyota can. Audi can't recharge at every braking point. Toyota can. That's going to be the match maker IMO.

Originally Posted by TF110

Audi stated they can't charge at every braking zone, that's different from what Toyota claims. Audi can't use the hybrid out of every turn unless that turn can be taken near 120kmh. So the Toyota can use the hybrid power immediately out of the slower turns if it wants to. The Audi can not. That's what I was getting at.

The recent comments of Vasselon clarify that the Toyota can not be recharged fully at every braking zone either.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by CTD

Which is very few!
Just think of how much the administration takes of those 250 people.
How many where they at Peugoet?

250 is very few?? At Elan Motorsports we built 30 Champ cars in 5 months with 70 people (monocoques, bodywork, all mechanical bits--very little was outsourced). 250 is a MASSIVE number of people to build two cars, especially when they had 6 months to do it. I suspect Toyota's TS030 effort has access to no more than 20-30 people (including design and engineering). Especially when they're commenting, "We cannot suddenly employ 50 people we have to spread the workload." Toyota have admitted the team won't have access to a spare tub for Le Mans; but even Pescarolo will have a spare S102.5 tub available, should they need it. TMG is operating on a skeleton crew and this speaks to a very limited operating budget for 2012. They certainly do not have 250 people working directly on the project.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

250 is very few?? At Elan Motorsports we built 30 Champ cars in 5 months with 70 people (monocoques, bodywork, all mechanical bits--very little was outsourced). 250 is a MASSIVE number of people to build two cars, especially when they had 6 months to do it. I suspect Toyota's TS030 effort has access to no more than 20-30 people (including design and engineering). Especially when they're commenting, "We cannot suddenly employ 50 people we have to spread the workload." Toyota have admitted the team won't have access to a spare tub for Le Mans; but even Pescarolo will have a spare S102.5 tub available, should they need it. TMG is operating on a skeleton crew and this speaks to a very limited operating budget for 2012. They certainly do not have 250 people working directly on the project.

What i meant was that 250 people, All included isnt a lot. As you need personel for other tasks, than directly motorsport related.

The budget and Crew problems are too me, something sprung from the increase in their plans. As i said, Toyota's demand dosen't meet TMG's supply.

I really dont know if its fair to blame Toyota for this anymore, as it might have sprung from their effort to save the WEC this year, which, we can only ve grateful for.

[MagVanisher]

Um guys, is there any problem with Toyota? If they're having a snag on their LMP1 project, that's gonna put in doubt on the LMP1 class, especially when Audi faces some privateers and beat them by a mile.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You should not take me too literal either when I wrote that you shout. Maybe "banging on" would have been a better choice of words. Anyway you have repeatedly stated (without convincing evidence) that the Toyota hybrid system is superior.

The recent comments of Vasselon clarify that the Toyota can not be recharged fully at every braking zone either.

It's funny you mention what Vasselon says, then adhere to his words as if he can't be coy about it. But when it comes to Audi you're very different than what the team says. I don't go to the Audi thread and state things like this. Yet you are here and quote things that have been shown to be somewhat less than truthful. Is it not possible for Vasselon to hide the truth? Other sources have said they've modified their chassis while he claims they haven't.

You do your job at defending Audi, but don't jump on me when I say things about Toyota that you find less than factual that're based on evidence otherwise. Sorry I don't scour the internet for confirmation or sources to back up every claim I make, but why speak as if they are all unfounded? I'm not being confrontational, I'm just showing you how your posts appear.

And again, you quoted me saying things from different posts and put it all together like I'm supposed to mean something to the effect that you want. Which is not the case. I told you I was talking about LeMans in my last post. I say don't take so literal what I said, and you reply the same! Then you go and quote things I said and label it in a literal sense. We just got over this about being so exact, and here you bring it up? I'm trying to move the conversation forward but you're hanging onto words that you are taking out of context.

Are you trying to label my posts as hyperbole? I'm just trying to post here my thoughts. I don't look for arguments with you.

[kurski]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In the interview Vasselon stated that he does not believe that front wheel hybrid system has an advantage in wet condition.

I think Pascal Vasselon is an interesting guy, even though someone may believe him because he is a former head of Michelin F1 activity. Vasselon was transferred in March 2005, the Toyota team, he was the first head of R & D, general manager for car design and development, but in the end he was promoted to senior general manager chassis while many just laughed at him. I think he has become a skilled person, as we have already seen the stages of World Endurance Championship, and he has learned a lot even though is former Michelin tire man.

[Bentley03]

DSC 'sources', which I assume to mean someone within, or close to, Toyota, suggest the car is some 70bhp down on the Audi. If this is true, do they really think they can run ahead of Audi at Le Mans? Most unlikely!

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Hopefully people will stop throwing around 'biggest manufacturer in the world' claims now we know the limitations they are working under.

Well the Race Team isn't the Road Car Manufacturer, at least TMG actually make their own chassis in house.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by TF110

I'm talking about the fact of being able to build only one car at a time. Regardless of whether they have enough material or not. To my knowledge the facilities are big enough for multiple projects to go on at once. Not sure if that's two autoclaves or what, but to me it means they have a small workforce dedicated towards this project right now, and/or someone else is using their facilities as well (which has been said before).

Since withdrawing from F1 TMG has been very successful selling it's services to others, hence their ability to go racing again, whilst still providing services to others.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

DSC 'sources', which I assume to mean someone within, or close to, Toyota, suggest the car is some 70bhp down on the Audi. If this is true, do they really think they can run ahead of Audi at Le Mans? Most unlikely!

Toyota knows exactly how much power the Rebellion engine produces and perhaps also what downforce/drag levels they were running. Based on the sector times and top speeds from Spa, Toyota can probably accurately calculate the power output of the Audi engine.

Pescarolo has done similar calculations in the past when Henri was complaining about the equivalence between diesel and petrol.

I posted the top speed of Spa in the Dome topic. Audi recorded a top speed of 300 km/h while Rebellion with its customer TMG engine could only do 280 km/h. That must the result of a big power advantage, and maybe a bit better aero, for the Audi.

Also remember that Minassian and Bourdais revealed that the top speed of the Peugeot was 20 km/h higher than the Dome at the Aragon track. See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...21#post3058321