What's happening to motorsport?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Piglet you must know about these things, hwat happens about those races at Cadwell or Anglesey? Are the entry fees higher because there are fewer racers there? Is the track hire lower in an attempt to attract more competitors? Or do the visiting clubs make a loss on these events which is subsidised by the more profitable ones?

I don't know for sure I think that in most cases the clubs that run the Series/Championship (ie Monoposto Racing Club etc.) decide which circuits it wants to go and and then effectively buys time on a timetable. I imagine that the entry fees are annualised to some extent so effectively the club takes a hit if there are fewer entries at places like Cadwell but I might be wrong and it may well vary from each individual club to club. I think it's a difficult game to work out where to take a championship/series - competitors do complain if they go to the same circuits week in week out so it's good to have some variety but naturally anything that involves more distance and so greater cost will deter some competitors from going.

Knockhill is a difficult one, when I've been part of big events that have run there people have come but IME people tend to make the trip to distant places once over few years so they might go to Knockhill one year and then Cadwell the next and Anglesey the next - they tend not to go to say Knockhill each year. I guess the BTCC supports are different because of series entries and probably because it is more important for every competitor to get to every round.

I think what I've seen more in the last couple of years is competitors sitting out rounds of a series or a championship as they don't have the budget for the whole year. We seem to have quite a lot of competitors but not all of them doing all events for cost reasons.

Originally Posted by midgetman

It's been mentioned before that higher up the scale late entries are accepted OK. There are also fewer gaps on the grid at e.g. Knockhill in the BTCC supports, which is about as far as one can go in the UK! This could be because entrants pay an annual entry fee which isn't broken down per race, rather than "pay as you go". I did that with the FISC MG series on the continent. Difficult one to enforce at club level, I accept, but it did keep entry levels up throughout the year. Yet another option available to organisers thinking outside the box!

[Stands back expecting the usual chorus of disapproval to his suggestions]

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I run my own business and I am feeling the pinch equally.



You know what? Nobody will miss you. Equally if I stop nobody will miss me so the argument doesn't have legs. If you really have to moan about the cost of your hobby then stop before it makes you ill.



The HSCC is a club as far as I can tell.

I am sure no one will miss me alone but look at the other posts do you honestly think I will be alone as I guarantee I am way from the bottom of the list when it comes to disposable funds, its not making me ill why should it, I will do what I can afford to do and thats it. If I had to pay out to have the cars prepared I would have been out years ago, correction, I would never have been in in the first place.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I know what you are getting at, Al, as Oulton is my local track, under an hour away, meaning that almost every other circuit is a minimum 3 hours away, but you do contradict yourself a bit here......you can't really complain about it being a Saturday meet meaning you have to have a half day off......and also complain about not being able to camp over after "a hard day's racing" - 20 minutes is so tough. 'Cos if the meeting was Sunday as you imply you'd prefer (tho Oulton has planning issues with Sunday meets) then staying over Sunday night would mean losing a half day on Monday....

I always prefer to stay over the night before a meet to be reasonably fresh and not stressed on race morning, but after the race to get packed up and away home - on a Saturday or Sunday evening this can mean home in time for last orders from most circuits

Its not just the twenty minutes racing its the qually the prep in between etc, I'm 64 it does take it out of you a bit! I wouldnt hang around the whole of Sunday I would be on my way after breakfast.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I know we have harped on this again and again but the entry for the forthcoming Oulton round is a whopping £245 for one race and for that reason I will not be attending apart from its on a Saturday and 200 miles away so means attacking the M1 on a Friday evening and another halfday off. Do you not think this is now a tad excessive, come on now something is going to have to give here lets not pretend it won't. Also Oulton will sling the competitors out Saturday evening and not let them camp over unless they pay some extortionate fee for a single security guard (presumable they dont have one the rest of the week) so who wants to do a hard days racing then turn round and drive 200 miles, this attitude from track owners is most unhelpful as well.

You could do what I did last time I went to Oulton (and Cadwell for that matter) for a Saturday meeting, get up early Saturday morning and have a nice easy drive, three and a half to four hours drive for me, you're an hour nearer to both so including the fact you don't need to load up on the day like I do you can have an hour extra in bed. Also come back Saturday evening and lay in on Sunday. It's all win win then, you earn enough momey on Friday afternoon to pay for the meeting and you aren't stressed because there's been no traffic on the drive up and back

[simes43]

Originally Posted by Piglet

LOL, you're determined aren't you!

Yep, it helps when you race cars.

The series/championships you point at have very full grids at other circuits as shown by the Brands entries that you keep ignoring.

A good grid and a bad grid equals two average grids, nothing more.

They have lower grids at the circuits that are further away like Cadwell and Anglesey - it seems a bit extreme to describe these as failing on this basis. Many of the championships and series at Cadwell had lower numbers, even PBMW & Project 8 Racing Saloons had lower numbers and these have significant sized grids elsewhere. The individual series and organisations generally chose what meetings they want to be part of so these series clearly felt that they wanted to run at these circuits.

Both Anglesey and Cadwell are great drivers circuits, circuits that rank highly amongst those who compete.
Perhaps the overheads of competing
might have something to do with it?

On the basis you suggest we should probably close these two circuits as traditionally most formulas struggle for numbers here - I guess perhaps we ought to shut Croft as well on a similar basis? OR perhaps we should force competitors to go to these places, that would help wouldn't it?

Sadly drivers are cherry picking the events they enter due to cost. If only a small number of drivers are going to commit then find ( Those with vested interests and the blazer squad fall off chairs) a similar formula or series and
amalgamate for that event to create a
full grid.*

As for the MSA brokering to merge series - those you point at are run by MSV/R so I imagine they are capable of having those discussions inhouse if the numbers prove to be low.

Yep, it should have read 750mc Formula4 and Monoposta.*

Generally, the MSA can't force series to amalgamate, motorsport is an open market and the MSA don't have the ability to tell people how to run their own commercial business competition law doesn't allow this. They have set more stringent rules for championships and more latterly for series which is welcome.

The introduction of stricter codes for new series helps, although I think the horse has bolted. I want to see the MSA
actively helping the existing competitor. *There is no mention of how they are helping with cost reduction, just how to drive new license applications sales.*

I don't race, but I do have a little idea about the subject

You suprise me ;-)

[Peter Mallett]

People keep banging on about entry fees as if that is the problem. IMO the problem is diluted grids. If people want to race they prefer to be on a large grid. Clubs look at things the other way. They think that opening up regs to more modified cars will encourage entries. What they don't see is that all they do is drag cars from existing series.

It's a vicious circle, the entrant pays to race, but the clubs don't cover the cost, ergo the fees go up, and the entries go down.

Organizers such as JDC or Masters work on a business case. The entrants pay their fees to race and the entry fees, albeit higher than a club entry fee, cover the costs. Ergo the customer gets to race regularly.

So, you pays yer money and takes yer choice. Moan about fees and thus don't race, or pay to be guaranteed an event.

Doesn't solve the grid dilution but with all the moaning going on, I doubt anything will.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

You could do what I did last time I went to Oulton (and Cadwell for that matter) for a Saturday meeting, get up early Saturday morning and have a nice easy drive, three and a half to four hours drive for me, you're an hour nearer to both so including the fact you don't need to load up on the day like I do you can have an hour extra in bed. Also come back Saturday evening and lay in on Sunday. It's all win win then, you earn enough momey on Friday afternoon to pay for the meeting and you aren't stressed because there's been no traffic on the drive up and back

Done that in the past Tim but unfortunatly and this is a fact I do have a tendency to start falling asleep at the wheel and I think it would be totally irresponsible of me to do what you suggest while driving the big old Dayvan with a heavy trailer in the back if I was a trucker it would be illegal I think, I tend to have more respect for road safety especially other users these days.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Done that in the past Tim but unfortunatly and this is a fact I do have a tendency to start falling asleep at the wheel and I think it would be totally irresponsible of me to do what you suggest while driving the big old Dayvan with a heavy trailer in the back if I was a trucker it would be illegal I think, I tend to have more respect for road safety especially other users these days.

That's fair enough and well done for admitting that you may fall asleep at the wheel. Even for a trucker it would be legal providing you have the required breaks before, during and after.

[GORDON STREETER]

As regards championships running at tracks that are either miles away or tracks that people don't like, I have been in a championship that gave double points for such venues and that helped fill the grids.
I know that money is a big issue but I note that the Spa races are well supported and they ain't cheap (I had to remortgage my house)
I think the offer of free ale to some of you tenthers made you enter

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by indigorallye

Should circuit owners be allowed to run championships?
Is there not some kind of monopoly being generated?
Easy for them to subsidise entry costs to attract drivers across.

And then once they have all the championships and all the series and the organising clubs are no more.....then (as with TESCO's) they can do what they want and charge what they want .....

I am not a fan of the fact that circuits have their own organising arm that seem to get bigger and bigger....but you see, just as the TESCO model...it is wooden dolllars for them and so...the price can be so much cheaper than say an organising club that is independant.

[terence]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

As regards championships running at tracks that are either miles away or tracks that people don't like, I have been in a championship that gave double points for such venues and that helped fill the grids.
I know that money is a big issue but I note that the Spa races are well supported and they ain't cheap (I had to remortgage my house)
I think the offer of free ale to some of you tenthers made you enter

I wonder how many races those entered have done this season though?
Possibly not many,and,as you say Gordon,people will travel great distances for something thats free.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Piglet

LOL, you're determined aren't you!

.............
I don't race, but I do have a little idea about the subject

love it

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

We should also look at some of the good things that are happening in motor sport and not just moan!

Claire's 2 hour race at Brands this w/e has a good grid (and I'm pleased for her that it has - hope it carries over to the 360) ..........!

We will have to stop this Andy....we've agreed with each other several times on this thread ....now you are just going too far!!! ha ha (thanks by the way)

[midgetman]

+1 Peter M!

Just so that the information is out there, what are people's target events/calendars/prices? It would help give organisers here some idea of what some of the competitors actually want.

I'll get the ball rolling:

£600 - £800 entry fee but in return two or preferably three races and practice over the weekend. I prefer 30 minute races. Circuits would be good ones with decent paddocks and facilities, reasonable hotels nearby, distance from me less of a problem because I'll be away for a few days at a time. Maximum 4 events per year, reasonably high profile.

Ummm, sounds like the race series I used to do...am I regretting selling my car and building an ineligible one? Yup!

Other people may prefer more race meetings but shorter races. What is your preferred entry fee? What do you perceive as the value? Give the clubs something positive to go on rather than talking about what you DON'T want.

[Peter Mallett]

For me, I hate to miss Spa. I like to race at Donington, Oulton, Brands Hatch and Silverstone. I like 45mins to 1 hour races (excluding the Spa 6hrs).

So a season of 45 mins (or 1 hour races) at Spa, Oulton, Silverstone, Donington, Brands Hatch, Snet would be fine. Entry fees are immaterial (up to a point of course) if I get to the events. 1 meeting each month is also good for me.

[MartinSmith]

See ive done my bit to be a "helpful organisor"

Someone wanted to enter the race at Brands, but had only just put in a new engine in their car and has had no real time to test it, so, we (believing YOU are our CUSTOMERS) agreed to let them pay some of the entry with a view to them qualifying, if the car is fine and dandy and they complete qualifying, then they will pay the balance and take the grid ...if on the other hand, it all goes a bit pete tong for them, they will not take the grid and they go home....thereby its a win all round because, this competitor was not going to enter as the full entry was a risk,but, this way, it works for us both.

Now, these little things may not make a big difference but it is a way of treating you the customer as exactly that. One thing that is so obvious from this thread is that drivers, in truth, want to be treated as customers...want to feel loved for want of a better word and I think that is may be what is lacking now in Motorsport.....so thats why we at 360....give you a hug!



In this day and age this type of thinking can be done and may have to be done.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

For me, I hate to miss Spa. I like to race at Donington, Oulton, Brands Hatch and Silverstone. I like 45mins to 1 hour races (excluding the Spa 6hrs).

So a season of 45 mins (or 1 hour races) at Spa, Oulton, Silverstone, Donington, Brands Hatch, Snet would be fine. Entry fees are immaterial (up to a point of course) if I get to the events. 1 meeting each month is also good for me.

So really you are not on the same level we are talking about Peter as you do not support any championship or organising club and do what 3 or 4 meetings a year. Thats OK in itself and good luck to you but are many of your comments really relevant to guys that want to race regularly in a series or championship maybe 8 to 10 times a year and be part of something? It seems they are the ones that are struggling to keep up and that the entries for these are the ones suffering. Its all very welll having these Spa/Portugal/US type meetings but its hardly British Motorsport which is what we are discussing here and where its going and without the core of people doing the regular championships/series I think the sport will be in serious trouble if things carry on at the rate of drop outs thats happening now. Not having a snipe at you personally but do wonder are we discussing different aspects of the sport here.

Claire, thats commendable and exactly what I mean when I talk of more flexibility.

[midgetman]

Which is exactly why I asked what people WANT Al. Maybe people like you are in the minority now and that's exactly why motor sport is struggling because it hasn't adapted to the new requirements, but instead has just put up its prices to cover the shortfall. Let's wait and see before making judgments. You, me, Peter, none of us know the answers without asking the questions.

Of course this is only a very small, very unscientific poll. The MSA should do a root and branch review with the licence renewals. Don't answer the questionaire, don't get the licence LOL.

[Al Weyman]

To Max, I am personally one of the people I mentioned above that would prefer to be part of something, a club and a championship and race more regularly say 10 meetings a year and just have the one race at each meeting I care little for double headers or better still for the same entry fee something like Rod Birley promotes, two 10 minute sprints. I think at my level that's a good format as it gives you a 2nd bite at the cherry if the first race goes pear shaped as so often happens. The enjoyment for me is the weekend at the track, meeting friends, having a beer or Barby, the craic, the atmosphere the weekend away from the humdrum of life the whole thing, the actually racing is to me less important. How much do I think is a fair fee for this type of racing, £150 absolute max and preferably less.

[Peter Mallett]

Al,

As far as I know the HSCC, HRDC, MGCC are all clubs which I support and with whom I have raced this year. It will be 6 events and 9 races. What exactly is your point?

[simes43]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

See ive done my bit to be a "helpful organisor"

Someone wanted to enter the race at Brands, but had only just put in a new engine in their car and has had no real time to test it, so, we (believing YOU are our CUSTOMERS) agreed to let them pay some of the entry with a view to them qualifying, if the car is fine and dandy and they complete qualifying, then they will pay the balance and take the grid ...if on the other hand, it all goes a bit pete tong for them, they will not take the grid and they go home....thereby its a win all round because, this competitor was not going to enter as the full entry was a risk,but, this way, it works for us both.

Now, these little things may not make a big difference but it is a way of treating you the customer as exactly that. One thing that is so obvious from this thread is that drivers, in truth, want to be treated as customers...want to feel loved for want of a better word and I think that is may be what is lacking now in Motorsport.....so thats why we at 360....give you a

In this day and age this type of thinking can be done and may have to be done.

This approach makes a real difference. Sometimes getting a car ready is like trying to get the moons to align!

JT, Steve Carr etc know what is involved and help whenever they can.

[Al Weyman]

My point is as I wrote it I thought it was clear enough, what you have mentioned above are i assume all different events and clubs and I noticed you often seem to cancel at the last minute for I assume work commitments which is fair enough I did go to pains to point out I wasn't sniping at you, if its 3 or 4 prestigious meetings you do that's fine especially as it appears you have to make a long trip from abroad to do them but I think the concern expressed here is more for the regular club racer that wants to do a whole seasons racing in a particular championship not the cherry picking.

[midgetman]

2 for fewer, bigger meetings. 1 for sticking with one club but racing more often.

Interesting amount you want to pay Al. For benchmark Club 100 A&D karting sprint series is £166 per meeting, Gurston Down hill climb is £100, most kart races around £45.

[Al Weyman]

You did ask With nice grids, drop the fathing about with the green flag laps etc and get on with it, you could probably squeeze one or two more races in a meeting so why not?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

My point is as I wrote it I thought it was clear enough, what you have mentioned above are i assume all different events and clubs

I'm entered in the Guards Trophy which is a championship. HRDC is a series. MGCC is an annual event.

Frankly, I find your constant criticism, which appears to be based solely on jealousy, somewhat tiresome. So, to make it clear. I have paid annual subscriptions to four clubs and three organisers, thus I don't think you can criticise my support of club racing. I've entered something like 9 races this season. I have not cancelled any events this season, although I acknowledge that I had to do so in 2010.

If I were to enter a championship, then I'd do a number of things which apparently are far too difficult for you:

1. I'd make sure I had a car that didn't spew oil virtually every time I put it on track; 2, I would ensure I had a fuel tank large enough to cope with a series of races, thereby giving me flexibility to do what races I want (see your moan about the 40mins V8 race at Donington); and 3, I'd ensure my engine lasted at least half the season.

However whilst acknowledging that bad things can happen, all of the above are a constant theme which has defined every season since you've been posting on this forum. Yet all you do is complain that people aren't running races short enough to suit your fuel capacity, which for the reasons stated above doesn't actually matter anyway, or cheap enough to suit an important entrant like you.

And finally, I don't enter championships generally because with my need to be in many places I can't guarantee (as you surmise) to be on the grid for every race, thus if I do turn up I may be accused of stealing points from regular competitors, a position with which I agree and which I think is unfair on them.

So, I go back to my position, which is: I like to race at certain circuits and if the organisers get the timing right, I enter. I don't count the cost of entry fees and I don't count the cost of time off, which I can assure you Al, is a significant sum of money. However I do have one gripe. The cost of flights has increased by over 30% this year.