2007 ALMS Season - Page 11

aeroehl · 18 Dec 2006, 03:15 (Ref:1793236)

Robin Miller broke the story on Speed TV tonight.

Dyson to Porsche

Fogelhund · 18 Dec 2006, 03:35 (Ref:1793244)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

If Dyson hadn't made huge mistakes choosing the 675 MG and current Lola, how many more race wins would they have had.

How many poles, fastest race laps compaed to race wins?

I don't think that the 675MG was a mistake when they purchased it. The Reynard/Zytek hadn't come into it's own when they made that purchase. Really, it was the best purchase they could have made, and it was the most successful chassis against the R8. I'll agree that the current Lola isn't up to snuff... yet really I'm not sure that the Courage is bags better. Otherwise, there were no other options. I think the AER engine choice was a bigger mistake than the chassis itself. I would think a Judd powered Lola would fair better to be honest.

Quote:

As I say the diesel theory is a red herring, Audi were winning with a restricted R8. Creation and Zytek have almost always outpaced Dyson, depsite their lack of US experience.

The diesel theory is not a red herring, it is well accepted that it is a significant advantage.

Yes, Creation and Zytek have outpaced Dyson... which IMHO is a Red Herring. So what, that speaks nothing of the issues with the regulations.

Quote:

At Laguna how much slower were Dysons Lolas to the Zytek/Creation?

Without the European cars we would have complained about the utter dominance of the diesels, with Zytec and Creation on hand, they put a whole new perspective on Audis performance.

Indeed... the European cars received allowances outside of the ACO rules... and still couldn't win. Let's see how they do straight up.

Quote:

The ALMS needs to figure out if theers a demand for this sort of racing in the US.

ATM the two headline classes are vitually dead.

The sky isn't falling. Let's see who actually shows.

cmk · 18 Dec 2006, 03:49 (Ref:1793247)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

The ALMS needs to figure out if theers a demand for this sort of racing in the US.

ATM the two headline classes are vitually dead.

Did you just seriously say this? The numbers in both headline classes show signs of suffering, yes. However, compare 4 GT1 cars to the number that showed up to some late-season LMS races and you will note the difference is not that great.

Furthermore, the quality of the few teams that remain is outstanding. Audi Sport North America/Champion, Corvette Racing and AMR would wipe the floor of their European competitors without breaking a sweat, and then put their feet up to sample a fine local vintage. Of course, same goes for the leading P2 and GT2 teams. Therefore, the teams seem to think that it's worth it to do their very very best. If there's no demand, then why are the teams trying so hard?

chernaudi · 18 Dec 2006, 03:59 (Ref:1793250)

Apperently the Dyson boys feel that it's futle to try to continue development of the Lola B06/10. It's a car that hasn't even done that well in the LMS. With Dyson being a professional out fit, that's saying something, especialy when they say that the 06/10 is better than the B160/EX257 that it replaced.

The Courage LC 70 was a better car aside from its hideously unreliable Courage designed transaxle( a Ricardo or X Trac tranny would've been better). But these may be because they're both designed to be convertable between LMP1 and LMP2, simply by changing engine and ballast. I don't know if that's the right route to go, but is a good cost cutting measure.

JAG · 18 Dec 2006, 04:41 (Ref:1793256)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmk

Did you just seriously say this? The numbers in both headline classes show signs of suffering, yes. However, compare 4 GT1 cars to the number that showed up to some late-season LMS races and you will note the difference is not that great.

Furthermore, the quality of the few teams that remain is outstanding. Audi Sport North America/Champion, Corvette Racing and AMR would wipe the floor of their European competitors without breaking a sweat, and then put their feet up to sample a fine local vintage. Of course, same goes for the leading P2 and GT2 teams. Therefore, the teams seem to think that it's worth it to do their very very best. If there's no demand, then why are the teams trying so hard?

The LMS has the 'excuse' of a rival GT only series and 20 or so prototype entries.

In the ALMS few teams wish to take up the challenge in P1 or GT1, withdraw the factory entires and who's left, were are the foundations?

Will Champion/Audi stick around to literally demonstrate their technology?

Corvette vs Aston seems destined to be a pantomine each close season, if one pulls out, the other goes also goes, result, no GT1 class.

I'm convinced one of the major factors in Dysons switch was the collapse of the Courage deal, and at least one of Creation/Zyteks not showing up.

Let's face it, whatever chassis/engine combination Dyson ran, the stars would have to allign to beat Audi, at least with a decent privateer field they could fight for the best of the rest position.

As for LMS vs ALMS, you could debate that all day long. For your Champion I could give Peugeot Sport, Joest, Creation, Pescarolo, Zytek, RML..............

SALEEN S7R · 18 Dec 2006, 05:02 (Ref:1793262)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmk

Did you just seriously say this? The numbers in both headline classes show signs of suffering, yes. However, compare 4 GT1 cars to the number that showed up to some late-season LMS races and you will note the difference is not that great.

Furthermore, the quality of the few teams that remain is outstanding. Audi Sport North America/Champion, Corvette Racing and AMR would wipe the floor of their European competitors without breaking a sweat, and then put their feet up to sample a fine local vintage. Of course, same goes for the leading P2 and GT2 teams. Therefore, the teams seem to think that it's worth it to do their very very best. If there's no demand, then why are the teams trying so hard?

Wipe the floor with the teams in the European GT1 teams? Oh please, tell me your not serious. Anyone remember the Spa 24hrs in 2005 when the factory Aston Martin squad came over for the big race? They were totally outclassed by the Vitaphone Maserati's throughout the weekend. Unfortunatly the MC12 isnt eligable though for the ALMS so we cant see how well they would do up against Corvette. Make no mistake though, this is Vitaphone, a top quality team not Risi that you had in the ALMS. No disrespect to Risi, they are a good little team but they arent a patch on Vitaphone.

Then we have GT2. I would be very interested to see how the top teams from the ALMS compare to the top GT2 squads from the FIA GT/LMS. Teams like Scuderia Ecosse and AF Corse are not to be taken lightly at all and im sure they would take the fight to the teams in the ALMS.

You need to remember that Aston Martin look set to pull out of the ALMS at the moment. This isnt the case with the FIA GT/LMS Championships however where they are represented by both BMS and Labre competition. We will see how good Corvette really are if the rumors are true and they do decide to come over to Europe in 2007. If they race in FIA GT I think they will have their hands full.

Regarding the European LMP1's, yes Audi had a advantage over Pescarolo this year but then that was to be expected. Im sure though that had Zytek secured 2 entries for Le Mans and had 1 car with a all professional driving line up they would have been right there at the front with Audi and Pescarolo. Zyteks form in the ALMS seems to back this theory up.

Looking at LMP2 too we can clearly see where the top teams are. And it isnt in the ALMS at the moment. Whenever the top teams from Europe have gone against the ALMS teams in LMP2 the European teams seem to come out on top. At Le Mans this year this was particularly the case. True we havent seen what Penske can do against the LMS teams yet but squads like RML are among the very best in the world, and they dont just win in sportscar racing.

All in all there is no comparissan at the moment between the ALMS and LMS/FIA GT. The ALMS at the moment is struggling. Had the new entries in the shape of Penske and Acura enter the series without anyone leaving then things might be looking better, as it is however theres a chance there might not even be a GT1 class in the ALMS in 2007. Compare that to the LMS/FIA GT where the LMS gets grids of about 6 GT1 cars per race and the FIA GT GT1 grid around 10 per race and its clear to me which series has the stronger GT1 field, the same applies to GT2 really. IMO.

cmk · 18 Dec 2006, 05:26 (Ref:1793265)

JAG: No interest to start a debate into the overall merits of the ALMS vs. LMS. Each has its advantages; great privateer depth and a large car count with high diversity, and proper endurance races (at Spa!) for the LMS, a battery of exceptionally professional teams battling at the top of their classes and some dramatic tracks (Mosport, Laguna, Sebring, Road Atlanta...) for the ALMS.

You make some interesting arguments, and some of them ring true. But, as Fogelhund has been trying to impress on you, wait for a Audi factory full-court press in Europe and see some of those same problems occur in Europe. The same would've been true in GT1 if Corvette Racing had some to Europe. Some of the teams you mention have not even competed in the LMS yet, so we can only focus on what is, not what might be. The Courage speculation is just that.

Saleen: I think if you read the bear's latest missive you may find some of your comments to be a little off. It looks good right now for there to be the same ALMS GT1 class as 2006 in 2007. That's suboptimal, but we know Corvette vs. Prodrive produced amazing battles without constant performance balancing in the past, and they could well again.

With reference to GT1 teams in the US vs. Europe, you make a good point with AMR in the FIAGT, but remember that they dominated at Silverstone that year (very early in the car's life) and stumbled at endurance (which they still can do) in that first season. The squad is clearly better drilled after a year in America, and I have no doubt about what Corvette Racing would do at the Spa24. Le Mans suggests the two "works" squads easily have the number of teams like BMS and Modena.

I think the expected lineup of P2 teams next year (Penske, AGR, Highcroft, Fernandez, Dyson?, ?) is extremely strong. RML may well prove worthy competition though (on the right tires).

GT2: Throw AJR (though not anymore...), Petersen, Flying Lizard, Risi etc. and maybe Rahal-Letterman next year at a European GT field. True, Scuderia Ecosse, AF Corse...but who else? LNT (Le Mans aside), Spyker?

SALEEN S7R · 18 Dec 2006, 05:41 (Ref:1793269)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmk

With reference to GT1 teams in the US vs. Europe, you make a good point with AMR in the FIAGT, but remember that they dominated at Silverstone that year (very early in the car's life) and stumbled at endurance (which they still can do) in that first season. The squad is clearly better drilled after a year in America, and I have no doubt about what Corvette Racing would do at the Spa24. Le Mans suggests the two "works" squads easily have the number of teams like BMS and Modena.

Yes they won the event at Silverstone in 2005 and it was very early in the cars life but remember they were carrying what, 25kg of ballast? The Maserati's on the other hand were carrying something closer to 100kg of sucess ballast. It's also worth remember that the MC12 too was very early in its development life at this time with just a handful of races under its belt.

As for your comments regarding Corvette at Spa, im assuming you think they would win? Well I guess we may find out in 2007. It's a big shame the MC12 isnt a ACO legal car as Im certain it would wipe the floor with the oppostition even running to the restricted current regulations it runs to in FIA GT.

Oh and regarding GT2, to add to the list of Scuderia Ecosse and AF Corse you could quite easily add LNT who as we all know are a top GT2 team and capable of winning any given race as well as JMB and Ebimotors.

Mal · 18 Dec 2006, 06:50 (Ref:1793288)

Much as I love the MC12 it is built to different parameters than the other GT1's which is a real shame. I dont want to reopen that debate but it cannot be considered an equal competitor.

I think this news regarding Dyson is a real shame. I dont agree with the camp that no one can compete with a Diesel. That may be true at LeMans but in ALMS they are not the fastest car on a regular basis. The Porsche beat them, and a well run, driven and sorted Zytek or Creation would have a real chance. They came close in Laguna and it was only silly mistakes that stopped one of them winning. I cant understand why no one has bought a Zytek to race as it is clearly a fast and reliable car could compete with Audi at all but Le Mans - perhaps Dyson should have bought one.

Audi has propped up top level sportscar racing for years and it would be a real shame if they were chased away through lack of competition.

What is left for them now? They feel LMS doesnt have enough exposure, ALMS has no competition; which leaves just Le Mans. Lets hope thats enough for them. The other alternative is to put enough cars into private hands so that they can race themselves aka Porsche in Groupe C.

old man · 18 Dec 2006, 10:16 (Ref:1793356)

DSC getting really mysterious this morning, can't wait for more on the new announcement, they are taking a leaf out of the UK Government book and leaking stories first, if it is from Germany on Saturday it must be something to do with Porsche

isynge · 18 Dec 2006, 10:43 (Ref:1793379)

Quote:

Originally Posted by old man

DSC getting really mysterious this morning, can't wait for more on the new announcement, they are taking a leaf out of the UK Government book and leaking stories first, if it is from Germany on Saturday it must be something to do with Porsche

I know - it's simultaneously slightly annoying and quite fun. The one massive benefit is had they been "old media" and just broken the story in an attempt to get a scoop I'd just have ended up being mildly depressed. By being mysterious and hinting they foster a degree of comment and excitement that has me checking back to their site, and here, on a frighteningly regular basis.

All this, of course, is predicated on the news in fact being that Dyson's going with a Porsche LMP2.

old man · 18 Dec 2006, 11:39 (Ref:1793414)

What do they have to do to make the Porsche LMP2 into an LMP1?

Must get soem work done, can't keep looking

Fogelhund · 18 Dec 2006, 13:04 (Ref:1793497)

Saleen, this is a discussion about the ACO, LMS and ALMS, not FIA GT, JGTC, or Grand Am. Yes, there are some strong teams outside of ACO racing, but if we are going to compare Europe vs. North America ACO racing, can we just stick within the boundries?

If we go ahead and rank teams that were in the LMS and ALMS last year, and will be this year, as regulars, it would be a real stretch to not have ALMS teams at the top of every category.

P1 - Audi, P2 - Penske GT1 - Corvette, GT2 - Risi

After Audi, I'd give any of a half a dozen cars in LMS the nod over Dyson in P1 last year.... we may just see two Audi squads this year..in which case, they'd take top four spots.

In P2, for this years entries, car/team combo... I'll give ALMS the first seven spots, then RML, with ASM and Intersport tied.

In GT1... you've got Oreca, AMR and Corvette. Until Oreca actually competes against those top two, you can't rank them any higher than 5th.

In GT2, I don't know who has moved from FIA to LMS, but none of the LMS teams last year would have competed favourably over a season against any of FLR, PWL, Risi, Panoz, AJR.. nor would they against Rahal or Tafel.

Yes, if we ranked non ACO series as well...we'd see some changes for certain...

As far as AMR in the ALMS... it's either all or none. AMR and Corvette will compete... on neither will. Stay tuned, as you'll likely know the first week of January.

Graham Goodwin · 18 Dec 2006, 13:13 (Ref:1793503)

I'll bite - and I'll agree with much of the list above if we are talking about the potential in 2007 - GT2 though is where that falls down - If you discount FIA GT teams (AF Corse were mighty) and only include those who raced in ACO rules racing I'd suggest that Scuderia Ecosse, Autorlando and LNT would certainly rank amongst the leading group - GPC might have been up there too if it weren't for a season that was as disjointed as a skeleton thrown off a tall building.

isynge · 18 Dec 2006, 13:40 (Ref:1793534)

Well, Dyson and Porsche are official now. It's interesting, thinking back to a year or so ago, the non appearance of the first RS Spyder at PLM was termed by one member as possibly being "the end of the ALMS", now, to my eyes, the appearance of another pair, sounds potentially the end for LMP1 in the ALMS.

I simply can't see Audi turning up week in week out to trounce Autocon - equally I can't see the ACO standing by if IMSA tries to juggle the rules so somehow the LMP2s can regularly contend for outright victories against an R10.

Looking back it all seems sadly inevitable. Audi didn't like performance balancing, so they threaten to leave. Dyson see no benefit in racing on their own (Autocon notwithstanding) so they head to LMP2. Audi's left all alone...

Don't get me wrong - this news transforms LMP2 in the US into something genuinely fascinating, and in so many ways I'm looking forward to Sebring, but it doesn't stop there being a tinge of regret. Surely some sort of common sense way could have been seen to preserve LMP1 in the US? Couldn't it?

Fogelhund · 18 Dec 2006, 13:41 (Ref:1793539)

If Scuderia is a full time LMS team in 07', I'd certainly agree with you on that account Graham. I was just looking at last years results.

GPC should be there, but just weren't for whatever reasons.

I can't count LNT there though on pace alone, yet. They had a great season, and perhaps one of overachievement. They were very strong in the LMS, and of course the LM win is very important. I would definately say that they are biting away at the group I mentioned, and could challenge.. though I'm not sure if the Panoz chassis development has moved forward enough to keep up with the new 997, and really wasn't a match for the Ferrari 430's last year anyway. With more quality teams on both sides of the pond in 430's, and the new 997's.... we'll just have to see if the Esperante can keep up. Hopefully I'm proven wrong, but I think it will be yesterday's news pretty quick.

Graham Goodwin · 18 Dec 2006, 14:19 (Ref:1793584)

Sorry but I think that underplays LNT's results and pace.

They went up against three ALMS teams twice and beat one of them (White Lightning) on both occasions) and of course won one and lost one to each of the others (Multimatic and Flying Lizards)

I have no doubt whatsoever about the strength in depth in the ALMS but there are still some teams racing in Europe that can take the fight to the best from N.America

AU N EGL · 18 Dec 2006, 14:25 (Ref:1793591)

Quote:

Originally Posted by isynge

I simply can't see Audi turning up week in week out to trounce Autocon - equally I can't see the ACO standing by if IMSA tries to juggle the rules so somehow the LMP2s can regularly contend for outright victories against an R10.

Performance adjustments.

Changes, add some weight to the P2 cars, open up the restrictors on the P2 cars and Magic, P1 hybrids. Audi vs Pug vs Porsche, vs priveteers. Sounds like some good racing to me.

isynge · 18 Dec 2006, 14:27 (Ref:1793592)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Performance adjustments.

Changes, add some weight to the P2 cars, open up the restrictors on the P2 cars and Magic, P1 hybrids. Audi vs Pug vs Porsche, vs priveteers. Sounds like some good racing to me.

Absolutely - bringing the front running LMP2 guys into contention with the Audis would be fantastic, especially if they were sufficiently clever about it. But would Audi go for it? And what about the ACO given their grumbling about PLM results etc last year?

old man · 18 Dec 2006, 14:29 (Ref:1793595)

So, cats and bags chaps; Dyson Porsches it is, what does that leave in LMP1 to fight the Audi?

**FIRE** · 18 Dec 2006, 14:36 (Ref:1793602)

Quote:

Originally Posted by class4v

I think Roger Penske won't be very happy with that kind of news..

Maybe not but from the start it was clear Porsche would sell the Spyder to privateers in 2007.

Quote:

Originally Posted by canam

I can't see Champion in the LMS. Le Mans...yes but they really have no direct business involvement on this side of the pond to justify a LMS season--particularly if Joest is going to play.

Champion with Porsche Spyders in near future? Besides Audi they are also selling Porsche road cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Re. Champion, I expect their cars will go to a European team.

Oreca?

**FIRE** · 18 Dec 2006, 14:42 (Ref:1793604)

Quote:

Originally Posted by isynge

I simply can't see Audi turning up week in week out to trounce Autocon - equally I can't see the ACO standing by if IMSA tries to juggle the rules so somehow the LMP2s can regularly contend for outright victories against an R10.

Acura LMP1 in 2008 or 2009?

dedalus5150 · 18 Dec 2006, 14:57 (Ref:1793619)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIRE

Acura LMP1 in 2008 or 2009?

IIRC they did state that as their intent when they announced the program. Acura vs. Audi could work well for 08/09.

But for next year, we can only pray that Creation crosses the pond to fight with Audi, and cling to the remote hope that they'll drag Zytek along with them. Pity that nothing seems to be developing with the Courage-Cosworth package.

isynge · 18 Dec 2006, 15:01 (Ref:1793624)

Being after lunch and inherently more positive - could we see this as potentially an opportunity for LMP1 in the US? Okay, Audi's participation is up in the air at the moment, and Dyson's gone, but does that make LMP1, with potentially three auto entries to Le Mans, a more appealing prospect, and thus making finding some funding to run the series a touch easier?

old man · 18 Dec 2006, 15:33 (Ref:1793705)

You would think that isyng with all the front running that would be on TV both sides of the pond but the snag may be that, with two teams using the Porsche some giant killing may follow as there can be no sandbagging, interesting year in prospect perhaps but not vintage in this (or any?)class.

So a 4 way bet: Audi to win LMP1. Porsche LMP2, Corvette GT1, Ferrari GT2, only doubt is which?

Anybody offering odds?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Acura LMP2 Enters ALMS 2007!!!	Garrett	North American Racing	70	10 Apr 2007 15:27
ALMS 2007 New cars	aeroehl	North American Racing	218	1 Nov 2006 20:15
My ideas for A1GP (Season 2006/2007)	mabs_nsx	A1GP	18	11 Dec 2005 22:14