The Rain Light & MSA Rant Thread

[scrutineer]

Firstly I would comend Lifeline for putting information on the site about the requirement being removed this year.
I would also question how some manufactures are claiming MSA approval when the MSA have said that they do not approve them?

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Farbrooke

5.14.2 All single-seat cars of Periods G onwards, and all non single-seat cars not originally equipped with tail lights must have a red warning light in working order at the start of a race, which faces rearwards, is clearly visible from the rear, is mounted less than 10 cm from the car centre-line, has a surface of between 20 cm2 and 40 cm2, is solidly attached, and which can be switched on by the driver. This light must be either incandescent and of a power of at least 21 watts, or «Tharsis» or «Dm Electronics» type LED. Such a red rear light is recommended for all other cars

App J 257 - 8.4.5 - seems to allow 21 watt or LED so long as FIA approved

So it seems to me that outside MSA areas you can have 21 watt or LED and that if you are under AppK- and not a single seater - you do not need one at all. - which I would raise issue with at the likes of Spa in the mixed speed saloon car races

Some organising clubs, for example the 750MC, state explicitly in their SRs that regardless of the acceptability of 21w fog lights in the Blue Book (up to 2007/8) they require LED high intensity lights to be fitted if you want to race with them. I know cos its why I have one fitted. BUT, they don't require them to FIA approved! So it seems that not only can the MSA over-rule the FIA on the required standard, but individual clubs and over-rule the MSA and make their own requirement so long as they are at least as safe as the MSA rules

[Austinspace75]

I'd also like to commend Lifeline - For watching and engaging with this thread. This sport is steeped with organisations, clubs and businesses that seem to have an obsession with shrouding everything they do in mystery and intrigue when in fact everybody would be much better off with the kind of open, uncomplicated and engaging attitude Lifeline have shown here.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Some organising clubs, for example the 750MC, state explicitly in their SRs that regardless of the acceptability of 21w fog lights in the Blue Book (up to 2007/8) they require LED high intensity lights to be fitted if you want to race with them. I know cos its why I have one fitted. BUT, they don't require them to FIA approved! So it seems that not only can the MSA over-rule the FIA on the required standard, but individual clubs and over-rule the MSA and make their own requirement so long as they are at least as safe as the MSA rules

And don't forget that from January they have to be wired so they are permanently on when the ignition is on

[lifeline-fire]

Re FIA Sticker

Without having the information to hand I am pretty sure there is no requirement for the attachmnet of an FIA approved label to a light currently.
On our version we do have a label on the back which gives some basic electrical data as well as quoting the homologation number the unit was issued with.
When you homologate and "approved" product you then have the right to use the FIA logo in conjunction with the Homologation number issued.You have to issue the FIA with a copy of the label you intend to use on the product which forms part of the homologation document or form of recognition. The FIA do not issue labels that we as manufactureres have to pay for and apply to products. However SFI do in the USA.

Jim

PS I am, not dipping out of this thread, just going away for a couple of days!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>And don't forget that from January they have to be wired so they are permanently on when the ignition is on

Come again? Even in brightest daylight you have to have your light switched on? I presume you mean 750MC of course.

How odd.

[Al Weyman]

The club chairman must run a Volvo :-)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>>>>And don't forget that from January they have to be wired so they are permanently on when the ignition is on

Come again? Even in brightest daylight you have to have your light switched on? I presume you mean 750MC of course.

How odd.

Yes It's a 750 sort of thing.

[terence]

It's probably to encourage more overtaking,how bloody anoying is when you drive behind some pratt who's driving about with one switched on!

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by dtype38

JohnD, I'm not sure where you get the £30 mark up from. From Jim's original post he's looking at basic manufacturing cost excluding labour of about £25 and selling on at about £60 to give the retailiers the margin they want. I'm sure for commercial reasons he won't want to be more specific, but having worked for many years in manufacturing I know that labour, transport, etc can often double the basic manufacturing cost... so it looks like a pretty standard net margin to me.

As for using an EC compliant fog light, that seems like a reasonable option.... so long as you're keeping a safe stopping distance between yourself and the car in front that is

Edit: sorry Jim, you got there first.

dtype,
I said £30, because I bought a 50-LED light for £10 off eBay, and the price for the same (the very same!) with FIA approval was about £40. OK, eBay gets around some of the costs you mention, but that's the selling price not the manufacturing price. And a reasonable mark-up is entirely fair, but 40% of £10 is not £30.
From what Lifeline Jim says this item was designed for the severest conditions possible, A1GP/international sports car racing.
Then for some reason the MSA decided that was appropriate for everyone else. As Farbrooke has pointed out that Appendix K allows either LED or incandescant lights, I think that the MSA have acted dishonorably in blaming the FIA for their need to rescind the modification to the regs. See this winter's Motorsports Now!, p.42
I'm only an ordinary licence holder, but I have supervised the Regs. for my series and the MSA has not bothered to reply to my email enquiry of a month ago, seeking clarification. Like everyone else, I've been left to glean what I can from here.
Perhaps more emails are needed to get that clarification made public! Just go to the MSA site at http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/conten...p?article=2346 click on the drop-down menu under 'email contacts', and click on 'Race'.

John

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by terence bower

It's probably to encourage more overtaking,how bloody annoying is it when you drive behind some pratt who's driving about with one switched on!

brilliant

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by JohnD

dtype,
I said £30, because I bought a 50-LED light for £10 off eBay, and the price for the same (the very same!) with FIA approval was about £40. OK, eBay gets around some of the costs you mention, but that's the selling price not the manufacturing price. And a reasonable mark-up is entirely fair, but 40% of £10 is not £30.

Out of interest which one did you get that was £10 and is FIA approved for £40?

[JohnD]

£10 (the auction went that high) - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Motorsport-LED...QQcmdZViewItem

£40 - in fact £45 inc,VAT - http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p1...duct_info.html

John

[Tim Falce]

John, the Ebay one is the same as the £9.99 Maplin item. The Merlin one AFAIK has a built in resistor in the wiring and different connections, see this.
I use the Maplin ones and fit my own resistor but find the LEDs pop and I am now on my second one and it needs replacing again.
If I could be sure the Merlin one would last 2 or 3 times as long as the Maplin one I would pay the extra and go with Merlin.

[JohnD]

Chacun a son Light.
John

[Simon S]

Been following this thread for a while now....

I can see what's happened here, from where I am sitting, it's a case of the blind leading the stupid...

I fully accept that a single seater ala A1GP/FF/etc type cars should have a decent rain light, after all, it's the only light they have.

the problem is when some clown applies this to *all* cars that are raced.

take you typical roadsports type car, they will already have 'E' marked rear lights (at least 2 and offten 4) as well as 1 or 2 'E' markef high intensity 'Fog' lights.

Now, I bet you that NONE of the FIA spec LED lights are 'E' marked and thus it's ILLEGAL to fit them to a road-going car, and as for 750 mandating that they should be on 100% that's just laughable in the context of a road-going car.

Now, I have no problem with the FIA/MSA trying to improve saftey, etc. but is it too much to ask for a little thinking though the subject *BEFORE* making the rules up?

[terence]

So this is the first time this kind of thing has happened ??

[Al Weyman]

I am still totally unconvinced about the 'lifing' of seat belts and helmets, where is the proof? One of my customers is a seat belt manufacturer and he says its nonscence.

[Tim Falce]

I was always under the impression that the material that helmets are made from deteriorates in strength over time and should be replaced after 3 or 4 years anyway.
Have I been misinformed?
As for seat belts I don't see the point in lifing them as the scruts always check condition as well as labels and as a competitor you would only be a fool to yourself if you don't replace as needed.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Simon S

Now, I bet you that NONE of the FIA spec LED lights are 'E' marked and thus it's ILLEGAL to fit them to a road-going car, and as for 750 mandating that they should be on 100% that's just laughable in the context of a road-going car.

No it's not.

It would be an offence to use them in place of a required light (or in a way which caused confusion with a required light, I believe). Look at all the truck driving muppets (and owners of pimped-up Subarus) who have all sorts of additional LED lights.

I suspect that owners of cars with them wired to come on with the ignition might have difficulties with use on the road if they were, or looked like, red rear fog lights. But only because they would be on when the visibility conditions did not mandate their use. (100m I think.)

[Good point for a lawyer - If they are not E marked and so cannot be the 'Red rear light' specified in the Regulations - could they be immune from this restriction? Don't fancy arguing the point with the average traffic constable though. ]

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

I was always under the impression that the material that helmets are made from deteriorates in strength over time and should be replaced after 3 or 4 years anyway.

Carbon Fibre? If these man made materials broke down that quickerly why is there all this fuss about land fills, dont buy it myself, its one of thise unprovable 'better safe than sorry' things we all go along with.

[midgetman]

Al, helmets haven't been lifed for a good few years now. The last update to a BS helmet was 1985 and 22 years use should surely be enough even for you It was in the early 80s that helmets were given 4 years, but that rule died pretty quickly.

Snell updates itself occasionally, and the MSA incorporates the new standard a good few years before dropping the old one - SA2000 is still running alongside SA2005.

Mind you, it's pretty hard to find a BS6658-85 Type A helmet these days.

Fair brickbats I'll throw at the MSA, but I don't do mudslinging for the sake of it. I'll defend them on this.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by JimW

No it's not.

It would be an offence to use them in place of a required light (or in a way which caused confusion with a required light, I believe). Look at all the truck driving muppets (and owners of pimped-up Subarus) who have all sorts of additional LED lights.

I suspect that owners of cars with them wired to come on with the ignition might have difficulties with use on the road if they were, or looked like, red rear fog lights. But only because they would be on when the visibility conditions did not mandate their use. (100m I think.)

[Good point for a lawyer - If they are not E marked and so cannot be the 'Red rear light' specified in the Regulations - could they be immune from this restriction? Don't fancy arguing the point with the average traffic constable though. ]

Regards

Jim

don't belive you are correct on this....

*any* light showing from the (in this case) rear of a car *must* comply with VL regs (and depending on how you read them, the homologation of the car in question).

just because some chavs have stuff tacked on their sad-mobiles does not mean it's legal to do so...

the difference here is that MSA as an official organisation are *telling* us to do something that's against the VL regs...

[Al Weyman]

Al, helmets haven't been lifed for a good few years now. The last update to a BS helmet was 1985 and 22 years use should surely be enough even for you It was in the early 80s that helmets were given 4 years, but that rule died pretty quickly.

Really, why did I have to buy a new one then in 2005 after I laid off racing for 8 years, and before that I had to change one as well, I have them hanging on the wall in my garage still did I get that wrong and could have saved myself money. I am sure I must have been told to change it somewhere along the line.

[scrutineer]

Al, I would have thought that the helmet would still have been ok, although if its been stored in the garage then it may not be in the best condition. As I understand as soon as helmets come out of the mould they start to degrade and therefore need to be lifed. Oh and how many people have carbon helmets (unless you have something like an Arai GP5 RC and you dont see many of those outside the top level ie F1, GP2, A1GP), most are a mix and if you have a BS standard then it more than likely wont be a carbon