[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[kvenom]

Apparently Toyota is doing another shakedown at the Bugatti circuit tomorrow.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Apparently Toyota is doing another shakedown at the Bugatti circuit tomorrow.

I think Nissan is there too

https://twitter.com/ellwoodblues/sta...146753/photo/1

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Giba

There are numerous times in the history of Le Mans that the fastest car hasn't won, so why can't it happen this year? The Toyota's will not be miles behind and can take advantage of weather conditions and incidents to move up the field.

I don't think anyone is saying that it can't happen. It's just that this time there will probably be six faster cars ahead of the Toyotas. But we'll see.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Comparing races between years doesn't really work because every race is so different. But we wouldn't be into this sort of thing if it was predictable, would we?

Nope!! 13 more days!

[TF110]

Looking at the times, Toyota didnt seem to go for fast laps. During the rain they were just as quick as Audi and Porsche. Nakajima ran a 3:25 but besides that they seemed to run to a pace around 3:28/29. Nothing seemed very conclusive to me except Audi and Porsche did a few laps faster than Toyota's best.

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Looking at the data (for what it's worth given the weather and the fact that the teams were doing their own programs), the #1 Toyota's average lap times (excluding in and out-laps and laps over 4:00) are competitive.

Numbers please, looking strictly at the fastest times Toyota is lagging around 2%, that would translate to half an hour deficit in 24h. But I think this is the worst case, I expect race pace to be 1% behind the fastest car, looking at total pit time in the past at LeMans it can be from 40 min to 1:30 depending on the strategy, car troubles or accidents.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Just correcting a little mistake there

LOL. you're forgetting that it's also Hamilton's fault. All four years in fact

Originally Posted by TF110

Looking at the times, Toyota didnt seem to go for fast laps. During the rain they were just as quick as Audi and Porsche. Nakajima ran a 3:25 but besides that they seemed to run to a pace around 3:28/29. Nothing seemed very conclusive to me except Audi and Porsche did a few laps faster than Toyota's best.

This is what i was thinking too. reminds me of TMG in their F1 days, rarely going for qualifying laps on practice sessions and sending Trulli out in Q1, 2 and
3 like his life depended on it. Im hopeful that they were doing the same on the test day. there were no reports saying they went for a fast lap.

I wander if Toyota and Nissan will lodge a complaint about Audi and Porsche's 3part rear wing

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by TF110

Looking at the times, Toyota didnt seem to go for fast laps. During the rain they were just as quick as Audi and Porsche. Nakajima ran a 3:25 but besides that they seemed to run to a pace around 3:28/29. Nothing seemed very conclusive to me except Audi and Porsche did a few laps faster than Toyota's best.

i think nobody really went for fast laps. 3:21-3:22 for cars that acheived 1:54-1:55 in qualifying at spa definitely isn't pushing. of course, track conditions are probably the main reason for that, but to be honest, i expect toyota to be some 3 seconds behind porsche and audi over a single lap.
and although, in the history of the race, we've had cars running 3 seconds slower per lap than the fastest cars and still win the race, toyota are running against the 2 most successful and bulletproof marques that ever raced le mans, each of them with 3 cars and each of them probably 3 seconds faster a lap. so unfortunately, i think it will be quite a hard le mans week for them.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

i think nobody really went for fast laps. 3:21-3:22 for cars that acheived 1:54-1:55 in qualifying at spa definitely isn't pushing. of course, track conditions are probably the main reason for that, but to be honest, i expect toyota to be some 3 seconds behind porsche and audi over a single lap.
and although, in the history of the race, we've had cars running 3 seconds slower per lap than the fastest cars and still win the race, toyota are running against the 2 most successful and bulletproof marques that ever raced le mans, each of them with 3 cars and each of them probably 3 seconds faster a lap. so unfortunately, i think it will be quite a hard le mans week for them.

if we go by last years 371 laps, that logic will leave Toyota 18-19 minutes behind if we use (371*3)/60. So, definitely more than two major incidents for the front running cars will give Toyota a chance, given they stay out of trouble themselves. Could be another race to forget in 2015

[Skemer]

Pic from today's shakedown


Here's another

[TF110]

The outside edges of the front opening are closed off a bit compared to this

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Audi and Porsche aren't bulletproof.both have had issues this year. Don't forget last year both remaining audis had turbocharger failures that cost them 5 laps and near 20 minutes in the pits,and one also had an injector repair around midnight.while both Porsches retired in the last hour even though one went back out for the final lap.yes it's a 6 car opposition but all Toyota needs to do is stay with in a few laps and they may have a chance.its Le Mans so you never know.

I'm more worried about the practice sessions and qualifying.last year saw a lot of torn up race cars leading up to the race and Toyota has been short on available tubs.last thing they need is writing off a tub or two.

This year reminds me a lot of Le Mans 2010.its going to be an Audi and Porsche fight but I will have some hope for Toyota.

[Acid09]

Toyota's only chance lies in the fact that the two others can't afford to go easy.

If it was just Audi they'd be hopeless as Audi could easily afford to play safe with at least one car. With Porsche in the mix, none of the other two can afford to go easy though..so there will be some attrition.

Toyota's best hope is that Audi and Porsche are very close to each other. If one of them has an edge and can afford to minimize risk after a few hours, Toyota's already slim chances twindle further.

I've said it before, it would be a remarkable turn of events if Toyota could somehow manage to win their first Le Mans while having a clearly slower car. Having the fastest car has never served them well in the past 30 years, after all.

[joeb]

I think Toyota has a shot if they can keep their car out of the garage. Audi and Porsche will be pushing each other but they do have a 3rd car they can play to a different strategy. Toyota is limited in strategy by only having to cars, but I am far from ready to count them out.

[crooky]

Toyota just need to give their all with both cars all race and see what happens. They seem too far behind Audi and Porsche to go for a softly, softly approach as even if those two have problems they'll likely still overcome a plodding Toyota.

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by crooky

Toyota just need to give their all with both cars all race and see what happens. They seem too far behind Audi and Porsche to go for a softly, softly approach as even if those two have problems they'll likely still overcome a plodding Toyota.

The question is if Toyota's supposed reliability will last if they go "all out". They have to hope the tires last longer than Audi because the TS040 can probably do 1 lap more on fuel around 14laps, if they stretch their fuel mileage. Porsche will use more tires, but they can go to 14laps on fuel easy according to Truswell.

So here's the game:

Audi: Faster, long lasting tires, 13lap fuel stints
Porsche: Faster, shorter lasting tires, 14lap fuel stints
Toyota: Slower, longer lasting tires, 14lap fuel stints (touch and go apparently depending on how hard they push)

[Acid09]

I don't think pushing the car too hard is a wise strategy. They have to have perfect reliability to even have a shot, whether they're 2 or 3 seconds off probably won't make much of a difference.

They need to make sure they're still running should lightning strike the other two.

[kvenom]

The fact of the matter is, since the program started, they've only had 1 car out of the 6 entries have a clean race and that was the no.8 in 2013. Odds are stacked against them.

[Acid09]

Then again, Toyota's more prone to lose cars to freak accidents than to actual reliability issues at Le Mans.

2012 both cars were involved in crashes, 2014 one was. That already counts for more than 50% of their problems at Le Mans in recent years.

They just have to keep their car on the road somehow.

Normally, the underdog hopes for rain but in all honesty, TMG has been absolutely terrible in dealing with rain ever since the program started.

Lost the #8 last year due to rain and lost Austin as well because they made the wrong calls.. so yeah, that would probably not work in their favor.

[Bandicoot17]

Got strategy in '14 spot on in the rain at Silverstone though.

[kvenom]

Nakajima has been confirmed for the race.

[TF110]

We dont even know what the race pace is for anyone, so its up in the air to who is fastest or slowest. Every year its the same, but there is never a dull race until there is no competition left. None of us knows what the future holds. Toyota could have both cars crash out or have a failure, or it could be all the Audi's, Porsche's, Nissan's etc. Nothing is set in stone. Judging pace is premature as well. The test day was anything but conclusive.

What I found interesting was Nissan's top speed being set without the hybrid. And on top speed, Toyota set their's during the wet in the second session!

Thinking back to 2013, that was an interesting race because no one thought Toyota stood a chance. But they finished 2nd and had a shot at the win thanks to their race pace and stint length. Le Mans is way more than speed, because the fastest car often doesnt win, its the best race in the world.

[Acid09]

Marcus Schurig of Auto Motor & Sport (who's usually very well informed) confirms that Toyota's big issue is the V8.

Apparently Porsche has 1300hp at their disposal during boost phases, Toyota has to make do with "just" 1150hp, so that brings us back to the missing 150hp that have been rumored before.

Perhaps more worryingly, the article also mentions that the move to a turbo engine has to be decided in Japan (since they're supplying the whole power train) and they apparently haven't made that decision yet, meaning Toyota may have to do with the V8 for another season.

That's pretty disappointing news, having one year of having been caught out by the competition is one thing..but the prospect of looking at another season of being not fully competitive must be very disappointing for the team.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/m...o-9595304.html

Looks like TMC continues to hamstring TMG which is a big shame. They obviously have a very, very talented racing devision at their disposal but limit their potential by continuous underfunding/slow decision making.

[chernaudi]

I don't know if TMC in Japan supplies the whole powertrain (the gearbox I think is designed by TMG and uses XTrac internals), but they do supply the engine.

The biggest problem with the current V8 is that it's down on torque without the hybrid system. It's also down on top end power due to rev limiting it to keep in mind the fuel consumption regs and above all else to enhance durability.

And though more power would be nice, torque would be a big help too. RCE's article on the Audi R18 say that Audi at most are making (based on press numbers) 820+bhp between engine and hybrid system (such a claim does seem low, but is based on Audi press numbers of 560+/270+ hp claims, emphasis on the +; Audi is probably in reality making about 900bhp combined), but RCE also state that Audi, between the diesel engine and hybrid system, are assuredly making more combined torque than everyone else right now.

But that's the advantage of forced induction. Turbochargers and superchargers are torque multipliers, and allow smaller engines to make the same power and torque as larger engines without having to run insanely high RPM (which doesn't boost torque at all).

We do have to remember that the block started out as a 2.65 liter turbocharged Indy Car engine if what we know about RV8 family is right (if that's not right, then it had it's origins in the 3.0 NA Indy Car engine used in the IRL), then became the 3.4 liter Formula Nippon/Super GT V8. It's now 3.7 liters.

If TMG are stuck with having to develop the V8 for the next car, does anyone have any idea how far they can stretch the bore and stroke and what capacity might they be able to milk out of the existing block?

[TF110]

That unconfirmed powertrain information was said by Vasselon previously. He didnt give away details on next year's hybrid system or engine. But others in the team have said a new hybrid system arrives next year. I think thats the main issue. Not being able to release energy at will, or store up a significant amount hurts them. Then the weight issue on top of it doesnt help.