Club F3 - Page 12

driftwood · 9 Jun 2006, 10:47 (Ref:1630534)

we dont need wannabe`s in club f3 they can race Frenault BMW FFORD duratec or National/scholarship F3 if they want tp progress
Alex Khateeb came in last year did a few races dipped his toes and has moved on
a fist full of wannebes will come 1 year then leave at end of year
that is not what club racing is about and 17-19 yr old beating a bunch of club guys fat n forty is not going to do his CV much good will it
I can hear Trevor or Docko being over whelmed at hearing the sprog beat his dad and grandad in club f3 !!
The ARP people tried this young guy approach and it didnt appeal to them and frankly if we had 3 young hoons im sure we woul loose 5 older guys

the only reason a dad would put his liccle " johnny" in club f3 is thats all he can afford to race in for £20k on a car and 20k running costs its cheaper than National FFord and 4 times less than Frenault BMW etc where his peers are racing who have the $$
so please be realistic and not waffle on about Club f3 having and ID crisis
it is a club mans series for man with £8k or 30k to buy f3 car and race in and do 3 or 8 rounds subject to his budget

yes u can race 2 seasons in FVee for less but then i can go banger racing at the weekend for £200 and a tin of dulux to repaint my Rover SDI and then when ive raced i can sell the car for £35 at the scrap yard

Bob Pearson · 9 Jun 2006, 11:16 (Ref:1630543)

Driftwood, I think your plans and thoughts are excellent, but in the current market, will it work? Now before we go off on any tangents, please be aware that I would love to see club F3 succeed and have made no secret of that in the past, in fact we (myself and Ian) both agree it is the only thing we would want to do rather than BARC Renault. However, you are aiming only at a market already dominated by Monoposto and also containing in part guys from our formula and FPA. Now we, as I am sure you recall were going downhill during 2003 and 2004 with grids in the low teens. We are now going in the right direction again, but with a substancial injection of what you call "wannabees"
The question really is, can you do what we failed to do when the circumstances are very similar except that your cars and running costs are probably a bit higher than ours were at the time.
I sincerely hope you suceed, but I can't help but wonder what the difference in our two circumstances is that will provide the key?

JohnMiller · 9 Jun 2006, 11:21 (Ref:1630545)

How can you compare a series for F3 cars, one of the historically most important classes of all time, with Sports 1000 which was in all reality doomed to failure from the off?

First of all you say Club F3 is poor because of low entries for Combe. Now it looks like a better entry for Donington, you find other things wrong with it.

No doubt if these are addressed you'll not like it becasue of too many yellow cars or something.

JohnMiller · 9 Jun 2006, 12:27 (Ref:1630604)

Entries now at 20.

JustinDawkins · 9 Jun 2006, 15:45 (Ref:1630687)

Quote:

Originally Posted by driftwood

I can hear Trevor or Docko being over whelmed at hearing the sprog beat his dad and grandad in club f3 !!

I am not sure Trevor or "docko" really give a **** what about a drivers experience - give them the money and you get to drive F3 - no matter who you are.

Good news about the entries - it would be nice if they can build this up.

ss_collins · 9 Jun 2006, 17:19 (Ref:1630722)

Now john thats you being emotive, history is irrelevant. I too want to see club F3 succeed but I think its got some real flaws that need ironing out. Can it sustain 20 entries over a season? I have real doubts.

Cleggie · 12 Jun 2006, 15:46 (Ref:1632589)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Now john thats you being emotive, history is irrelevant. I too want to see club F3 succeed but I think its got some real flaws that need ironing out. Can it sustain 20 entries over a season? I have real doubts.

tut tut...always with these negative thoughts SS Collins.......

driftwood · 12 Jun 2006, 16:30 (Ref:1632639)

Cleggie wel said!! we dont the negatives
JustinDawkins- yes too a degree yr right F3 team owner will take yr money but they really want a guy with the talent and the money cos they dont want to run last and if u had read my statement u could see i was saying teh same as u did but in my normal ambigous sarcastic tone!

Im pleased to hear the donny f3 race has 20 cars i cant be there( saving my $$ to get my own car built for the next round) but i made sure a few guys took their fingers out of the butts to go there- but give me a car and i will go
Bob yes ive seen FR BARC series results & it seems to have collected a few younger guys and its possible the younger guys have thought of racing in that series cos they have "pals" there of similar age moved up from karts/ FF1600 etc where as club f3 does have older guys racing.
However the running costs are so close between f3 and BARC FR that if u and Ian are looking at a change come and try f3 and u will be surprised at the running costs !!

mrsweety · 12 Jun 2006, 19:15 (Ref:1632819)

Hi all

I'm also very interested in starting something next year, maybe this year!!. Looked at Mono/Club F3 and club Renault!
As someone new to single seater club racing *I race karts* I'm finding it difficult sourcing information on both cars and
running costs etc etc

Mono site - looks the same as 5 years ago, rarely up-dated - forums gone?

Renault - nice looking but slim on info! + the forum registration don't work

Club F3 - looks bland and lacks any info again

I'm sure someone has worked hard to these and sorry for the harsh comments
It's the same with the superkart site!!! was getting there but they just hacked the best bits away!!
There needs to be more information and better websites built so people getting into this don't feel so overwhelmed.

After reading this forums over the last 2 years! I still can't decide..

Club F3 does sound very interesting tho!!! but there's also classic F3!

Thanks

A

banzai_2001 · 12 Jun 2006, 20:43 (Ref:1632904)

Sorry to ask this it may have been answered, but 11+pages is a lot to go through. What is the annual budget to run in this championship?

Arty B · 13 Jun 2006, 07:37 (Ref:1633179)

[QUOTE=mrsweety]Hi all

I'm also very interested in starting something next year, maybe this year!!. Looked at Mono/Club F3 and club Renault!
As someone new to single seater club racing *I race karts* I'm finding it difficult sourcing information on both cars and
running costs etc etc

Mono site - looks the same as 5 years ago, rarely up-dated - forums gone?

Go here for the Mono Forum www.startline.org.uk

Bob Pearson · 13 Jun 2006, 09:16 (Ref:1633260)

It really is difficult for a formula to publish running costs. They vary enormously depending on how you go about repairing and maintaining your car and what expectations you have regarding success.
I would say in most single seater categories the variation between the guy who spends the least and the one who spends the most is probably about a factor of 10.
So, from that we can see that a published figure, whether it is at the top end or the bottom end can create a very false impression.
The best method by far is to go to an event and talk to as many drivers as possible and then evaluate all the answers and arrive at your own opinion.

driftwood · 13 Jun 2006, 10:38 (Ref:1633326)

i believe the costs for yr average man running his own Club F3 car will be
entry fee £250-300 per race
fuel to track £50-100 depends on distance
fuel for race car £40
tyres new set £700 divide by 1-3/4 races ( 150-250 per race)
misc parts needed per round £50 minor repair etc
wear n tear on gearbox dog rings replacement ratio due to wear or need to go up a tooth £100
gear/eng oils lubs etc £20 per race
so allow £800-1k per race
add onto this figure your end of season engine gear box rebuild and divide that by the races u do so im assuming a pro rebuild at £1000 on gearbox and £4k on motor which should do 2 seasons
so £5000 by say 14 rounds= £360 per race
so per round is likely to be £1400 for an F3 car with the owner doing his own prepping but not allowing for accident damage
i personally would allow £2kfor the years budget to cover a ding

I would think BARC FRenault costs are not far from F3
Mono biggest saving is the engine rebuild cost being £1k ish as its a standard road car engine
Im not interested in taking their 2nd hand tyre cost into account
im sure Frenault is like f3 new tyres 1-3 races to stay in the hunt and new per round to be in the title chase as it is in Mono

If u give the car to a semi pro mechanic or team u can add on £1000 per round to your car prepping race attendance support costs
so Club F3 will be around £12-15k to do 6 or 7 races without any major problems or crashes
i know the full season with testing semi pro set up is around £60k
ive not added up my own per race cost for f3 for last year but i have always thought £800-1000 per round is the ball park cost
You also have to factor in the cost of owning the car at £8k-20k over 2 years with car depreciation if you wish to be a real "bean counter" over the running costs

If you want to race hire instead i can do that it will cost u a bit more per round but u dont own the car or have to worry about anything except writing out the cheque
My car is for sale or hire

schomosport · 13 Jun 2006, 20:29 (Ref:1633818)

Bob Pearson is right and Driftwood's numbers sound about right for one end of the grid - but here's another perspective:

Do all your own prep, kip in a tent and beg, steal or borrow tyres and 3k gets you the admin, a test, 3 single headers and two double headers. At least that was the plan until the engine lunched itself: I'm now looking at a 2K overspend for 2006.

Ah the joys of club motorsport!!!

That level of funding however will never make you anything other than an also ran unless you are very very talented indeed.

Bob Pearson · 14 Jun 2006, 07:44 (Ref:1634066)

There is a massive potential difference in cost in BARC Fr depending on the class you run in. If you are of the schomosport approach, which we are then the costs of running in the Club class are quite tiny (by motorsport standards).
However the Championship class does not allow that approach, the driver cannot build his own engine, diff and gearbox, chassis and crash structures have appointed suppliers of repair services all parts must be brought through a single supplier. All of those factors mean higher costs, so there isn't an accepted cost for BARC FR, it depends on which class and which approach.
If you are of our approach and run in the club class and pick up some prize money, the figure looks even better. Unfortunately its not quite good enough to make a profit out of it

driftwood · 14 Jun 2006, 09:20 (Ref:1634126)

schomo approach is true budget club racing but as he said u will be making up the numbers and u may find 2 or 3 other giys ti run with in the race butif yra racer who wnats points tro[hey a write up in AS u need to spend the $$ on tyre sto get to the front end and that costs money
my view is u can do 3 races right and aim for glory as oppossed to running 7 races at the mid pack to rear end
the bottom line is motorsport is far more expensive in the UK than else where and far more than it was years ago even with yr index linking etc taking into account the value of the £ then and today-what it could get u the average weekly wage/ national house price cost of mortgage versus disposable income ratios etc etc
the track owner is the biggest bandit then the cost of insurance making entry fees higher than they used to be
Now we have tyres that just dont run the course of 3 or 4 meetings with consitancy and now people pay some semi pro mechanic to prep the car / rebuild the motor as oppossed to doing it themselves as it was done when i wore short pants and we had only 8 race series not 87 as we have today which depletes grids and too many race meetings
yes im of t rack a bit but some of u guys just where not around 10 20 or 30 yrs ago to know to understand that motorsport has become too expensive and we get no start or prize money any more !!

Bob Pearson · 14 Jun 2006, 09:56 (Ref:1634161)

Driftwood, you sound nearly as old as me, I'm in my 36th year of motor sport, so I have quite a wide angle view on the whole matter.

driftwood · 14 Jun 2006, 10:15 (Ref:1634178)

cheeky bugger Im not that old i happened to be 9 yrs old when my father started racing and i have a very good memory and yes i can recall entry fees at £6 and when they went to 7 there was up roar i was going to brands before they had the bottom paddock and just before they altered paddock bend and made it safer
they where the real good old days when privateers raced in F1 F2 f3 F5000 with a car and a tool box and ye s ive been parked next to mansell hill herbert in the paddock when they where going thru the junior formulas & motor racing was dangerous and sex was safe

Cleggie · 14 Jun 2006, 16:39 (Ref:1634433)

Quote:

Originally Posted by driftwood

cheeky bugger Im not that old i happened to be 9 yrs old when my father started racing and i have a very good memory and yes i can recall entry fees at £6 and when they went to 7 there was up roar i was going to brands before they had the bottom paddock and just before they altered paddock bend and made it safer
they where the real good old days when privateers raced in F1 F2 f3 F5000 with a car and a tool box and ye s ive been parked next to mansell hill herbert in the paddock when they where going thru the junior formulas & motor racing was dangerous and sex was safe

......ah, nostalgia, its not what it used to be.....

driftwood · 14 Jun 2006, 17:26 (Ref:1634469)

it comes in cans and bottles after about the 6th can or 2nd bottle it flows !!

andy97 · 14 Jun 2006, 19:06 (Ref:1634538)

Quote:

Originally Posted by banzai_2001

Sorry to ask this it may have been answered, but 11+pages is a lot to go through. What is the annual budget to run in this championship?

Plenty of people race in Mono at an average of £300-400 per race, myself included, and that includes everything from club membership to petrol to travel to entry fees to licences. But...this is the Schomosport approach. Nevertheless, I thoroughly enjoy my motorsport and at the end of a meeting I am probably smiling as much as the guys that have won! Now that's club motorsport!

driftwood · 14 Jun 2006, 19:30 (Ref:1634564)

yr figures do not include any consumable engine gearbox rebuilds servicing tyres misc wear n tear
3-400 squid covers entry and fuel only and is not the average cost to run the car per annum as they guy was asking
the AA say its average of 40-50 p per mile for people to use their car for work purposes but the fuel only costs 15-20 per mile !!!

andy97 · 14 Jun 2006, 19:50 (Ref:1634589)

Quote:

Originally Posted by driftwood

yr figures do not include any consumable engine gearbox rebuilds servicing tyres misc wear n tear
3-400 squid covers entry and fuel only and is not the average cost to run the car per annum as they guy was asking
the AA say its average of 40-50 p per mile for people to use their car for work purposes but the fuel only costs 15-20 per mile !!!

My costs are absolutely representative of everything that i have spent to run a Vauxhall Junior 16 V and a Vauxhall Lotus over the last 4 years in a mix of Mono, F4 and BARC-SEC events. The figure includes a very minor amount of accident damage, brake pads, oil and other consumables and paid help at every event. I have only tested a few times (so fuel costs are limited to 15 min practices and 20 min races) and I admit to using second hand tyres. I also tend to stick to the events at Silverstone, Donington, Mallory, Brands and Oulton Park so don't have many overnight stays to pay for or high travelling costs.

I also freely admit that I have never had an engine re-build - the Vauxhall junior engine still had the seals on it from when it was run in the national championship in 2000 and was still pulling like a train when I sold it. The engine in the FVL has not been touched since before the last owner had it. That's the beauty of Monopostos standard road car engine policy - the engines should run and run. Have I been lucky? Maybe. Am I foolhardy in not having the engines re-built? Maybe but numerous people have had engines let go after expensive rebuilds. I'll take my chances.

I repeat - I have raced for £400 a race over the last 4 years in Monoposto and I know of others who have raced for £300 a race. It can be done, if you choose your events carefully, your class carefully, do some work yourself, use second hand tyres and are a bit lucky. Sure we are a long way from threatening the front of the grid but we set ourselves goals appropriate to our budget and perceived skill level and still enjoy ourselves. That's why Mono is such a good clubman series. Costs for other series may be much higher but I was giving the figures for Mono, at the budget end of the scale and was not trying to do otherwise.

Don't tell me what I have or have not spent.

Bob Pearson · 15 Jun 2006, 07:38 (Ref:1634824)

Andy 97 is right, we have run BARC renaults at those rates, annual outgoings of 3-4k per year for the whole championship, so it is possible. It is only when you decide to test for each meeting, use B&B's and buy new tyres that the figures go out the window. He is also right about road car engines, ours are such engines and 3 seasons without a rebuild is normal.

JohnMiller · 17 Jun 2006, 18:06 (Ref:1636376)

19 cars today was a good turnout and they certainly looked impressive, in my opinion.

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