JPm/MS 1st lap who was to blame? (merged)

[Adam43]

IS the second paragraph an example of 'a little class'.

I am not sure you could describe trying to going round the outside MS as 'cheap'!

[Adam43]

Ah! I've just made this blummin' thread go to 12 pages.

[Gt_R]

Err...i think you misunderstand AA, what i'm saying is that a MS-fan could claim that JPM did a dirty move and hit MS and start another war of words with a badly judged comment/opinion (which thankfully didn't happen), just like people can unfairly judge MS's move and call it "dirty" without due considerations... I"M NOT SAYING JPM's move is "cheap".

And 2nd paragraph isn't "little class". I'm just kind of "disturbed" by the amount of complaints JPM had for the past half a dozen race and i think i've put it politely enough. (and had i wanted little class, i could easily call him "whiner" "moaner" "idio" and brand his fans "blind" "blinked" etc..which i dare say i had refrained because i respect the fans of JPM)

It's one thing disagreeing and arguing, another calling each other names and slagging...isn't the forum for the former?

[Adam43]

It seems that you apply the reverse the names philosophy !

[Gt_R]

Yeah..anyway did you read the article on espnstar.com regarding this issue? The writer is a little harsh (despite being a fan of JPM's driving style), but it kinds of sum up what many people, not just MS's fans, perfectly.

[strad]

If Michael didn't hit Juan, Then where did that large crack in his left sidepod come from?
If you have company on the track, you have to give them room,,,You say Mike would have spun had he handled it differently...I say he unwound early with the intent of forcing Juan off..
I say this because this is what I believe,,,IF it had been Juan on the inside that did it to Mike I would view it the same. I was not clean driving and quite frankly I feel he should have been penalized because we've had others that did much less face penalties...Some have said that because the stewards didn't do anything it must have been ok..Well it's been pretty well hashed over that people make their call, influneced by their personal biases...I have had people say...well Strad you can't divorce yourself from your biases (even though I think I do a fine job of it)...Well do you think those stewards and their decisions aren't influenced by their biases?

[Stephenw]

What is it that you think M. Schumacher is doing? You act like Tosa is a wide corner or something...it isn't...

The guy is braking to hit the apex and he see's Juan come barelling in on the outside and then dissappear as Juan...and now what? Once Juan gives up the apex like that of course MS is going to punch it!!

What?????????????????

He's supposed to back off the racing line and say "after you Juan"????????????????

puuuhlease!!!!!!!!

Where the hell does Juan think he's going on the outside of Tosa like that?

So let me get this straight, MS is supposed to back off while understeering WHILE HE IS AHEAD out of the exit of that corner because Whine Pablo Montoya has decided to pass where it's impossible to pass.

As usual, Juan can't set someone up; he either has to initiate contact, bang wheels, or force an error from the other driver because he's squeezing them onto the curb or onto the grass...or, like in Imola, he things that he can just swap his car onto the prefered line from the marbles and cut off the car he is supposed to be passing legitimately. He thinks he's GOD or something. He's not racing like the rest of them, he doesnt even TRY to set someone up, and he has NEVER setup MS he has FORCED his way though everytime. And what happens when he gets away with it? MS doesnt say a word.

Look at all the incidents he has been involved with with MS so far. Look what he did to David Coulthard and to Jenson Button. Look what he has done to his own team mate repeatedly. Look how he took Rubens out of the race at Indy.

The dirty driver is JUAN.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by strad
If Michael didn't hit Juan, Then where did that large crack in his left sidepod come from? If you have company on the track, you have to give them room...I say he unwound early with the intent of forcing Juan off...

So let me understand the logic here: 1) Whenever MS makes contact with another driver, it is ipso facto his fault, and he must be penalized; 2) Whenever MS fails to move off the racing line to let another driver through, it should be considered dirty driving, and he must be penalized; 3) Any observed under or over-steer of MS's Ferrari should be considered intentionally reckless driving, and he must be penalized.

A special "Schumacher Rule" like that would certainly give his rivals a fair shot at him, but you know what? He'd probably still win the WDC this year (barring collusion on the part of other drivers). Perhaps the drivers can draw straws at the pre-race meetings to see who will make contact with MS and knock him out or force the stewards to penalize him.

[Redblurr]

Geez is this still going.
Anyway came across this and a good summary of - well read for yourself:
"Mortified, absolutely mortified. That's how I felt when I heard Juan Pablo Montoya open his oversized mouth to launch into an inexcusable verbal tirade against Michael Schumacher on Sunday.

I was stunned, as was Schumacher and Jenson Button and everybody else who watched the post race press conference at Imola. Montoya's outburst accusing Schumacher of being stupid and blind really has to be the last straw... my embarrassment has now turned to anger and frustration that this child in a man's body is actually allowed to voice his opinions in public at all.


There must be a law somewhere or a gagging order that can be implemented on the grounds hypocrisy, stupidity and down right rudeness.


Don't get me wrong, I am all for free speech, but there has to be an exception made in the case of Montoya because he really is the biggest kill-joy in the paddock right now.


I could not believe my ears when I heard him rattle off a list of grievances, none of which hold any water, and then had the temerity – when Schumacher tried to diffuse the situation – of being completely arrogant to the point where a slap across the back of the head would have been perfectly justified and I would have been first in line.

My blood was boiling when a stunned Schumacher tried to calm the situation with a joke, telling Montoya that when he saw him gesturing at the end of the race, he thought he was celebrating: "I thought you were congratulating me!"

To everyone's astonishment, a stern faced Montoya hit back with: "I never do actually." That one comment really says it all..."

find the rest here

[Adam43]

Bloke is annoyed, says something in the moment.

Oh no!

[Dani Filth]

you ask for it damon

a) during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the
driver shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling
over to one side in order to allow for passing on the other
side.


so by this paragraph JPM should have been penalised for blocking Ralf ?? . did i understand it correctly .(it could have been my english )

[Gt_R]

Funny that the rules that JPM wants to be implemented on MS doesn't apply to himself. It's hypocritical and ironic that he demands "rule for all" when what he's actually asking for is "Ferrari/MS should get a stricter set of rules".

Quote Strad:"If Michael didn't hit Juan, Then where did that large crack in his left sidepod come from?"

Nobody said there wasn't contact. The crack possibly came from contact, but you just conclude it MUST be Michael, and if it is Michael, it MUST be dirty.

Quote Strad:"I feel he should have been penalized because we've had others that did much less face penalties"

Assumptions. Just watch Australia GP 2004. Look at JPM's move on Button (button forced wide to the grass..an incident not better than Imola's), look at Giancarlos' move on Nick at turn 3 (sqeezed Nick onto the inside running him up the curb)... Were they punished? Were they penalised? Another incident, and rightly so, Ralf's contact with Sato at Bahrain was much worse than Imola's and that only got a verbal warning. FIA had shown consistency with the system thus far and being quite fair frankly...

And again, Strad, go to F1onboard.com, and load a whole series of onboard laps with various drivers from race starts, you'd notice that counter-steers and the reactions of MS is NOTHING out of the ordinary.

Crying that the FIA/stewarts are biased is really a convenient way of putting blame onto others and twist the picture...of course it didn't cross your mind (and JPM's mind) that perhaps, FIA made the correct judgement.

Like somebody had mentioned, JPM's style is a physical and forceful way of driving. It's a fresh approach compared to other drivers like MS/DC/RB who sets-up a move. However, his difference in style doesn't mean people have to give way to him. He can't expect just because he made an attempt, he MUST get through.

And honestly, i'm really caught off guard because i won't have imagined JPM could act like a spoilt kid like he did in recent races...

[freud]

I am just appalled and astonished to see the filth and disgust thrown upon poor Juan Pablo in this forum... What was his fault??? To speak his mind in a press-conference.

Alright, JPM is not the most articulate and educated, sophisticated man on this planet. But, please, dont just hate him for that. Even if he was educated at a poor neighborhood in Bogota, and that his english is not exactly the best in the paddock...some peoplehere should not forget that he is a human too... that he has a wife and a family too. That he should not be 'hated'.

[Gt_R]

Err..please don't use "hate" JPM. (funny, i thought MS had a wife and family too and didn't exactly grow out of a wealthy family )... because it's not hate and filth.

To speak his mind is one thing, and to pass off that incident as a one-off and being passionate and in a moment of anger is easy. But surely, even JPM's most diehard supporters have to be slightly disturbed when a driver complains after every race, and harp on incidents long past...?

Anywya, strange that you are appalled and point out the "press-conference", from what i see, the recent few posts are mainly discussing about the incident, not the press conference. And Redblurr merely quoted somebody else, who rightly like Juan, had the right to "speak his mind"

[Stephenw]

What filth?

[Gt_R]

Err..please don't use "hate" JPM. (funny, i thought MS had a wife and family too and didn't exactly grow out of a wealthy family )... because it's not hate and filth.

To speak his mind is one thing, and to pass off that incident as a one-off and being passionate and in a moment of anger is easy. But surely, even JPM's most diehard supporters have to be slightly disturbed when a driver complains after every race, and harp on incidents long past...?

Anywya, strange that you are appalled and point out the "press-conference", from what i see, the recent few posts are mainly discussing about the incident, not the press conference. And Redblurr merely quoted somebody else, who rightly like Juan, had the right to "speak his mind"

[v8fan]

admittedly i haven't scrolled through all 12 pages of comments but IMO it was nothing. there was no dirty driving on ms's part and in the press conference montoya looked like a sook. its racing and montoya did'nt have it to go round the outside, schu held his line, montoya has to make it. sounds to much like ms bashing to me.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Redblurr
Redblurs link

That was the funniest thing i have read in ages, Theodore Liasi, needs to get a life.

[Redblurr]

so does the moaner

[Mr V]

Difference is of course, "the moaner", was the driver in the skirmish, now, whether he was right or wrong (is ther a right or wrong? He saw it from one point of view, Michael another), he has a right to air his views.

I realise that the journo also has a right, but to publicly critize, to the point of being a drama queen, isn't the right thing to do, he wasn't involved, just his perception of it.

[Mr V]

One thing that does make me laugh about F1 in this day and age.... drivers are branded as having no character or personality, Montoya, puts forward his perception of events, and gets condemned for it.

Why is this so different from the likes of Mansell, Senna, Prost or Piquet how were always moaning that another driver did something a bit "naughty" towards them, but were not condemned for it?

[fog_shadow]

Originally posted by Mr V

I realise that the journo also has a right, but to publicly critize, to the point of being a drama queen, isn't the right thing to do, he wasn't involved, just his perception of it.

the "drama queen" was the one singing during the press conference

[Gt_R]

Hah..just like how MS gets condemn for somethings while others don't... it works both ways MrV.

Anyway, we can't practice double standards and say that JPM can air his views but not a journalists right? It's a good read, a good laugh..but think deep about the article and perhaps, he aint too far off (though he's a bit "excited" in his choice of words)

Anyway, i don't condemn (not sure about others) his "airing of views", i'm just disgusted at the WAY he did it. Especially he's final line really is a public slap on MS's face, and frankly, spare a thought for a rival's feelings

More importantly, while he may attempt to sting MS, really he isn't doing himself much good because to a casual fan and a neutral one, it just shows his true colour..which is quite surprising..i for one wasn't expecting such an outburst..

Anyway, personality is not equal to being loud and complaining It can also mean being cheerful and comedian, being nice to Button for his wonderful drive, and doesn't neccessarily be a sour-grape or spoil-sport (applicable to all drivers,not just JPM) aye?

BTW, when's the last time JPM gave a sincere smile on the podium?

[Gt_R]

All i'm saying is, JPM can't seem to bring himself to congratulate others, or at least be nice at let others enjoy their glory - I feel sorry for Button and MS, not just at Imola, but for the past few races all the way since USGP last year! How'd you like people accuse you of exam-cheating at your graduation party?

[garcon]

Originally posted by freud
I am just appalled and astonished to see the filth and disgust thrown upon poor Juan Pablo in this forum... What was his fault??? To speak his mind in a press-conference.

Alright, JPM is not the most articulate and educated, sophisticated man on this planet. But, please, dont just hate him for that. Even if he was educated at a poor neighborhood in Bogota, and that his english is not exactly the best in the paddock...some peoplehere should not forget that he is a human too... that he has a wife and a family too. That he should not be 'hated'.

Maybe filth and disgust is a bit strong, but I echo your sentiments, Freud. Hate is an over-used word, usually by petulent little kids who always want their own way (I hate this, I hate that, I hate you, I hate him)... personally (and I've said this elsewhere) I simply can't bring myself to hate someone I've never met.

Juan has every right to speak his mind in a press conference. He might be wrong, but where's the crime in that? Have people forgotten how dull it would be if we had press conferences full of Kimi clones?