ALMS 2011 Discussion - Page 12

JagtechOhio · 2 Sep 2010, 00:03 (Ref:2753430)

An AER search linked me to this thread, and I read a few posts about whether the Honda V6 program was a factory effort or not. I think this press release clarifies the issue. HRA in Ohio is the R&D department for Honda production engines, and are working in conjunction with subsidiary HPD on the 2.8 L.

http://racing.honda.com/hpd/press-releases.aspx?id=5473

chernaudi · 2 Sep 2010, 00:14 (Ref:2753434)

Same thing goes for Roush Yates and Ford.

JagtechOhio · 2 Sep 2010, 00:48 (Ref:2753446)

So what's up with Roush and /or Ford supposedly building a GRE? I can't find anything on that. I fit exists, it isn't a stock block.

chernaudi · 2 Sep 2010, 00:57 (Ref:2753449)

Roush Yates and Ford are building a 3.2 liter EcoBoost V6 for the ALMS, and maybe a version of the 5.0 Cammer or 5.0 Coyote/Mustang 5.0 engine for future use.

HORNDAWG · 2 Sep 2010, 01:07 (Ref:2753450)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

So what's up with Roush and /or Ford supposedly building a GRE? I can't find anything on that. I fit exists, it isn't a stock block.

To this point I believe the first part says it all, 'supposedly'. I am with you in questioning its existence.

L.P.

JagtechOhio · 2 Sep 2010, 01:53 (Ref:2753460)

Yes, agreed on all counts. The Roush V6 is a fact...but are there any GRE's that are not just fumes, but really making exhaust? Audi doesn't have one, Ford's is fumes too from anything I can find.

One interesting tidbit from HPD today is that they are making front and rear adapter plates to make the 2.8L V6 a direct swap for their 3.4L V8. Longer input shaft for the gearbox would be the only major requirement, but you won't be losing wheelbase.

HPD didn't know anything about anyone else's GRE's.

trahsub · 2 Sep 2010, 12:43 (Ref:2753620)

Educate me on what a GRE is??

Victor_RO · 2 Sep 2010, 12:47 (Ref:2753623)

Quote:

Originally Posted by trahsub

Educate me on what a GRE is??

Global racing engine. It's an idea stemming from the FIA and several experts working for manufacturers involved in motorsport, one of the original voices backing this project was Audi's engine guru, mr. Baretzky.

JagtechOhio · 2 Sep 2010, 21:12 (Ref:2753816)

And I'm just trying to find out which GRE, if any, actually exists. Ulrich Baretzky was campaigning for its acceptance by IndyCar two years ago, and VW/ Porsche/ Audi still has no such engine.

Meanwhile, the Delta Wing group continue to promise that a vehicle will be built...in spite of the plan's rejection by the IRL. And the Delta CEO cites several manufacturers as potential suppliers of GRE's to power the vehicle.

That's the intersection which brought me here, since you all are more knowledgeable about ACO/ ALMS developments than I am. But most of the information seems similarly vague, as if the same promises are being offered by manufacturers but nobody is torquing up connecting rod bolts.

There are three existing race engine platforms that are candidates for installation in an IndyCar chassis, and the AER MZR-R is one of them. They all pre-date the GRE concept. None of them have generated interest from manufacturers to fund the adaptation of this existing hardware.

Where the interest and investment will come from to build GRE's, for IndyCar or any other category, is the question. If new development programs are underway, GREAT!! The rest is nothing but fumes.

dj4monie · 2 Sep 2010, 21:41 (Ref:2753829)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And I'm just trying to find out which GRE, if any, actually exists. Ulrich Baretzky was campaigning for its acceptance by IndyCar two years ago, and VW/ Porsche/ Audi still has no such engine.

Meanwhile, the Delta Wing group continue to promise that a vehicle will be built...in spite of the plan's rejection by the IRL. And the Delta CEO cites several manufacturers as potential suppliers of GRE's to power the vehicle.

That's the intersection which brought me here, since you all are more knowledgeable about ACO/ ALMS developments than I am. But most of the information seems similarly vague, as if the same promises are being offered by manufacturers but nobody is torquing up connecting rod bolts.

There are three existing race engine platforms that are candidates for installation in an IndyCar chassis, and the AER MZR-R is one of them. They all pre-date the GRE concept. None of them have generated interest from manufacturers to fund the adaptation of this existing hardware.

Where the interest and investment will come from to build GRE's, for IndyCar or any other category, is the question. If new development programs are underway, GREAT!! The rest is nothing but fumes.

Who knew about HPD's LMP2 engine until a mockup appeared at Le Mans?

NOBODY

All Ford (Roush-Yates) have is a press release, but with companies like these, where there's smoke there's fire. Also Ford is in the best shape between the Big 3.

Just because you can't Google it and come up with an imagine, details or a mockup doesn't mean much.

Cosworth showed a mock LMP1 Twin Turbo engine years ago, looking for an investor. It never came and nothing happen.

HORNDAWG · 2 Sep 2010, 21:59 (Ref:2753838)

There is nothing in the Roush-Yates press release that mentions a GRE 2.0L 4cyl. At this point there are no GREs announced for LMP racing period! This idea has been bantied around for a couple of years now with no result in this sector of the industry. Now back to the ALMS 2010 please.

L.P.

JagtechOhio · 2 Sep 2010, 22:00 (Ref:2753839)

Ryan Briscoe wrote about seeing the 2.8L Honda on the dyno months ago. Erik Berkman of HPD has been talking about it publicly since at least April, when there were rumors that this was to be a shared platform for the new IndyCar engine.

Like I said, there are intersections. I'm fully aware that some development programs can be enacted in secrecy. Today, the trend seems to be a little different.

What hasn't changed is the drumbeat of new and exciting racing developments which never see the light of day, or fail to make the projected impact when they do.

I'd certainly believe Roush Yates is building a V6, and they had no problem hyping it long before running one on a dyno.

It won't fit an IndyCar either. It's the four cylinders I'm curious about.

JagtechOhio · 2 Sep 2010, 22:12 (Ref:2753848)

No hijack intended dawg, and this thread is about 2011. What the engines next year will be, and who will be supplying them. There are relevant intersections.

One is that Dyson reported he is in contract with Mazda for two more years, so his participation in ALMS and the continued use of the AER seems assured.

That makes me a fan, to follow the continued progress of the engine development and see if any other participants adopt the AER. There are other places I'd like to see somebody stick one.

So the durability, factory involvement, and size of the program are all relevant to both of us, I should think. Same with any 2.4L V6, or any GRE which may or may not exist.

Bob Riebe · 2 Sep 2010, 22:21 (Ref:2753853)

Roush has as much time as he does money, he is also returning to drag racing after nearly forty years.
Do not cut him short in any matter, at least right now.

JagtechOhio · 3 Sep 2010, 02:20 (Ref:2753906)

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the article from Gordon Kirby in April with a few paragraphs about the Honda V6 for ACO regulations.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no231.html

Ryan Briscoe's statement was from about two weeks before: since the meaning isn't crystal clear, I should probably not have used it as a reference. He didn't specify that the Le Mans engine running on the dyno at HPD was a V6, so it could well have been a V8.

ubrben · 3 Sep 2010, 09:52 (Ref:2753981)

Dyson Racing on Facebook:

Quote:

Dyson Racing Team, Inc. We have no intention of leaving the ALMS; the Grand-Am program is a new platform for DRT as we grow the business.

Basically exactly what Chris Dyson told me at Mosport.

Ben

HORNDAWG · 3 Sep 2010, 17:46 (Ref:2754154)

Good to see AJR plans to stick around! Dagys piece

L.P.

JAG · 3 Sep 2010, 17:56 (Ref:2754159)

The basic idea for the GRE is a 4 cylinder motor that can be turbocharged.

Club racing formula, WTCC, WRC, F1 and P1 will all use 4 cylinder engines in various states of tune.

The only P1 options are 3.4 V8 and 2.0T, it was stated in Autosport Roush will develop a 2.0T for P1 if there is sufficient interest.

Over the years turbo engines have proven themsleves better suited to endurance racing with and without restrictors.

With turbocharger technology coming on leaps and bounds, alternative fuels and intergration with hybrid systems the 2.0T route could have the highest performance and transfer technology potential.

HORNDAWG · 3 Sep 2010, 18:10 (Ref:2754166)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

The basic idea for the GRE is a 4 cylinder motor that can be turbocharged.

Club racing formula, WTCC, WRC, F1 and P1 will all use 4 cylinder engines in various states of tune.

The only P1 options are a 3.4 V8 and 2.0T, it was stated in Autosport Roush will develop a 2.0T for P1 if there is sufficient interest.

I think it will be a maximum of 8 cyl., so maybe someone will build a 3.4L N/A V6. (?)

L.P.

**joeb** · 3 Sep 2010, 19:21 (Ref:2754193)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I think it will be a maximum of 8 cyl., so maybe someone will build a 3.4L N/A V6. (?)

L.P.

Would a 2.0L turbo v6 work too?

HORNDAWG · 3 Sep 2010, 19:48 (Ref:2754209)

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeb

Would a 2.0L turbo v6 work too?

That is already what the petrol P-2 turbo is, max of 2.0L & 6 cylinders.

L.P.

dj4monie · 3 Sep 2010, 22:13 (Ref:2754271)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

That is already what the petrol P-2 turbo is, max of 2.0L & 6 cylinders.

L.P.

And I'll bet u right now, the first engine will be 2.0L Twin Turbo V6 from HPD, cost wise it makes sense and get the engines off the dyno and into a car for some real-world feedback ahead of the 2012 Indy Car season.

JagtechOhio · 3 Sep 2010, 22:32 (Ref:2754277)

The 2012 Honda IndyCar engine is bespoke (not stock block) 2.4 L twin turbo V6 and should be running on the dyno by February, maybe March.

Likely the only major question to resolve is the fuel choice, as E85 is being considered but there are compatability concerns expressed by the fuel cell manufacturers.

Not fully understanding the ACO rules, but if a bespoke engine was acceptable for a particular category, perhaps that engine would be suitable for a sportscar as well. It will be lighter and probably have a lower cg that the stock block Honda 2.8 L V6

I suppose it would make more sense to build the 2.4L and de-stroke it to 2.0L if they wanted to build a bespoke 2.0L V6. Otherwise, there is no overlap between any of the platforms.

Max. projected output for the 2.4 V6 (with overtake assist active) is 750 HP. Durability should not be a concern, as the IRL has tasked Honda to lengthen the current V8 rebuild interval from the current 1400 miles.

HORNDAWG · 3 Sep 2010, 22:40 (Ref:2754278)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj4monie

And I'll bet u right now, the first engine will be 2.0L Twin Turbo V6 from HPD, cost wise it makes sense and get the engines off the dyno and into a car for some real-world feedback ahead of the 2012 Indy Car season.

No I doubt that very much!

L.P.

HORNDAWG · 3 Sep 2010, 22:50 (Ref:2754282)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Not fully understanding the ACO rules, but if a bespoke engine was acceptable for a particular category, perhaps that engine would be suitable for a sportscar as well. It will be lighter and probably have a lower cg that the stock block Honda 2.8 L V6

They are not really all that hard to cypher out.

Art.5 on pg#12

L.P.

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