[Official] British Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 10 of 23

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

but I was seething the third or fourth time that Horner said 'Lewis stuck his wheel in'. Max knew full well that as they approached the entry to Copse Hamilton was almost fully alongside.

Maybe Mr Horner should be reminded of how he described a similar (with roles reversed) incident between MV and LH in Spain. It seems like today's incident has been a long time coming.

Lewis (after Spain) - 'And then, as we went into Turn 1, I just made sure I gave as much space as I could to Max. In my mind, it’s always a marathon, not a sprint, so I’m just always thinking the long game and sure, you could be a little bit more aggressive. Do I need to? Well, I’m in the position that I’m in because I don’t get too aggressive when I don’t need to be'

Horner - 'Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well. He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,'

It seems to me that in Horner's mind, other drivers should move out of the way when (as he describes it) Max runs a car wide.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

As a lawyer familiar with due care cases in the UK, it is the extent to which a driver departs from the expected standards of a competent driver which almost entirely determines culpability - not the outcome. Of course, F1 drivers should expect to meet high standards due to the circumstances and the speeds at which they compete.

I agree that’s how it should be, but it’s not always the case in law. Murder is a more serious crime than attempted murder. Causing death by dangerous driving is a more serious crime than dangerous driving.

With respect to the Max/Lewis incident, this has been brewing for at least 30 years. Ayrton Senna invented the concept of “Give way or we crash”. Michael Schumacher polished it to perfection. But this is the first time we have had two exponents of the art racing together on equal terms. In my eyes the crash was more-or-less 50/50 but Lewis did miss the apex so I think a penalty was fair. 10 seconds seemed about right to me. Christian Horner’s post-race interviews were ludicrous, but it’s just the Red Bull way.

[Tourer]

It was really noticeable during Saturday's Sprint, that drivers were giving Copse less respect than used to be the case in regard to passing attempts. Over the years it hasn't been a corner that two cars can negotiate, either wholly or partly next to each other - but clearly the aero on these current cars makes it j-u-s-t possible or at least makes it seem so.

What that meant over the years is that if you wanted to pass someone there, you had to get it done prior to the corner, or accept defeat, back off and tuck in behind them. Hopefully with next year's cars running reduced aero we'll be back to that, as this approach shows respect for the corner and respect for fellow drivers and their welfare. Regardless of fault in the incident, we shouldn't lose site of the fact that a car left the circuit out of control at a 180mph odd corner and hit the barriers with a force of 51g - that's a big hit.

Very glad that Max is generally OK - have no doubt that Lewis would also be glad about that.

As for the fault found and penalty applied, it was a low level penalty so clearly not a lot of blame was apportioned and quite honestly, if it had been a slower corner and no big shunt come from it, I rather suspect that the penalty could have been less or even not applied. In my view, as the car on the inside and behind, Lewis had a clearer vision than Max on the outside, in front and relying on mirrors (in which Lewis was probably not visible). Each driver needs to turn in sometime and Lewis, knowing that, COULD have conceded the corner and avoided the shunt - but it was also clearly two hard-nosed drivers not wanting to back off.

Ultimately, the penalty didn't impact on the outcome of the race, although the shunt did of course.

This is motorsport, these things do happen but to me it was something of a surprise that it didn't happen sooner in the weekend, given the approach many (all?) of the drivers seemed to be taking to Copse.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I agree that’s how it should be, but it’s not always the case in law. Murder is a more serious crime than attempted murder. Causing death by dangerous driving is a more serious crime than dangerous driving.

With respect to the Max/Lewis incident, this has been brewing for at least 30 years. Ayrton Senna invented the concept of “Give way or we crash”. Michael Schumacher polished it to perfection. But this is the first time we have had two exponents of the art racing together on equal terms. In my eyes the crash was more-or-less 50/50 but Lewis did miss the apex so I think a penalty was fair. 10 seconds seemed about right to me. Christian Horner’s post-race interviews were ludicrous, but it’s just the Red Bull way.

This is the way I was thinking of the incident aswell. Suzuka 89 occured because Prost said he would no longer "Give Way" to “Give way or we crash” antics of Senna.

Lewis (after Spain) - 'And then, as we went into Turn 1, I just made sure I gave as much space as I could to Max. In my mind, it’s always a marathon, not a sprint, so I’m just always thinking the long game and sure, you could be a little bit more aggressive. Do I need to? Well, I’m in the position that I’m in because I don’t get too aggressive when I don’t need to be'

But I think Lewis' mindset has changed. He hasn't really been pushed and been under pressure since 2016. He was falling behind in the WC and needed to make a stand. He made a desperate move in the hopes that his rival would back out. Verstappen didn't. Lewis was lucky that.

A) Verstappen wasn't seriously injured
B) He sustained no lasting damage
C) He received a penalty that didn't really cancel the reward he got from the move.

Interestingly is Lewis's car position during the similar move on Leclerc. Lewis is right on the apex on the inside. He's at least a car width wider with Verstappen.

[Skam85]

Let me start with a disclaimer that I have no allegiance here.

But the fact of the matter is, Hamilton has now hit the right rear and punted off three Red Bull cars in the past couple of seasons. Pretty clumsy from a multiple WDC. I'm not going to infer anything else there.

Max has not made a mistake this season - Hamilton has made at least two, if we add yesterday we say three. Max has lost 25pts in Baku through no fault of his own, Hamilton got incredibly fortunate (a recurring theme across his career) with a red flag in Imola, +18pts. And then yesterday, another 25.

We love F1 for its unpredictability but due to a combination of factors almost all out of Max's control he only leads by 8pts.

I can only hope for the sake of somebody else winning the title that it evens out over the course of the season.

[smellysocks]

Clearly an intentional contact by Hamilton, no attempt at the apex.

The series is supposed to have top drivers, this was a bush league move.

[Adam43]

I’ve been reading some of the crazy comments on the internet. You won’t believe this, but some are even suggesting Hamilton did it on purpose. Madness.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I’ve been reading some of the crazy comments on the internet. You won’t believe this, but some are even suggesting Hamilton did it on purpose. Madness.

Not on purpose but his ego overrode his judgement.Senna on Prost all over again.
Was neutral in the Championship up until now but I really hope Verstappen wins the title.

[bathurst77]

Im neither a max nor a lewis fan, but respect them both as amazing drivers.
I do think both drivers share blame, max could have given more room, lewis could of backed off, but its lap 1 of a gp, we want and expect fast hard racing and drivers being brave and pulling off or failing at spectacular moves

But you cant punish a driver more just because the other car was damaged more
If a driver pushes another off, he should get same penalty regardless of if it was onto the grass the sand or into a catch fence. its the same "crime" so gets the same punishment. No driver is saying "if i bump him here he will slide onto sand, if i bump him there its the fence." The driver cant be held responsible for how badly damaged another car gets.
Lewis shouldnt be punished more severely coz maxes car was destroyed. if there was a gravel trap or different designed fencing or the hill flattened or maxes car taking a slightly different angel the result might have been different. the offence was the touch, the effect doesnt matter


I think one of the reason we get variations in penalties race to race is that they have different judges each weekend. Maybe have one set of judges for every race then people would know what to expect

[steve nielsen]

The fact is Hamilton was so far of line that move would have never worked, Max had much more speed through that corner and Lewis still understeererd into Max.


Lewis tried a line that would only word in a slow speed corner and it was just plain stupid to think it would have worked at copse like it is turn 14 at Shanghai.

And I think the speed involved should be taken into account with penalties, since that crash was 51G wich makes it very different from a slow speed corner where only a slight spin
would happen.

Lewis saw how Max won in the sprint race and was thinking it would happen again if he did not overtake him on lap 1, so he tried a desperate move nobody in his right mind would think would work.

[GORDON STREETER]

I have seen this over and over several times and I am not an out and out fan of either of them but I do respect both for being amazing drivers. Having been around motor racing for most of my life both competing and as a spectator I saw it as a motor racing incident that was "going to happen sooner or later" on the first lap, and though 50/50. Obviously I don't have access to telemetry showing what either of them was doing and assume that the "judge's do ? However this will run and run for a while so that us armchair critics can have a go at each other

[Skam85]

Nice race by Ricciardo though. Still beaten by Lando, but P5 is a good result for the team. That should keep Pat O'Ward away from his seat for another few races.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by smellysocks

Clearly an intentional contact by Hamilton, no attempt at the apex.

The series is supposed to have top drivers, this was a bush league move.

Stewards would agree with your summary:

The Stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence. Cars 33 and 44 entered turn
9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 44 was on
a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside.
When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of
Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.

[steve_r]

Did Verstappen know that Hamilton was still alongside, do we think?

[Alan52]

I think the reactions of people are affected by the race result.
The driver in the wrong gets 25 points and runs around after the race with a flag wrapped around him like he has got what he deserved.
The driver not to blame gets 0 points and is at the same moment in hospital getting checked out.
The incident on its own was not the premeditated strike on another driver that Senna used to specialise in but its affect on the World Championship could be huge.If Verstappen finishes second at the end of the year by less than 30 points big asterisk.

[Compromised]

Blame whoever is responsible for the current regs - drivers will do ANYTHING to establish position early in the race. You can not follow, so Lewis did what he had to. Results speak for themselves

[Gingers4Justice]

I think the most amusing aspect of this entire saga is that you do not read to read the post to work out each poster's opinion, you just need to look at their flag below the avatar.

[Akrapovic]

60:40 Lewis fault IMO. The penalty was actually too harsh IMO - I'd have done the 5.

My view is: Lewis is a lot more alongside than the Dutched flag users are claiming. He was so far alongside that Max saw him and turned out of the corner and then hard back in. So lets not pretend Lewis wasn't close enough. The fault comes where Lewis missed the apex and was scrubbing off speed from understeer. That extended Maxes gap.

Also, can we talk about how there was so little chance of Max making the first corner? Copse is not a corner you can run around the outside of properly. Leclerc didn't bail to survive - he bailed because you can't really do it at that speed. And it wouldn't have been the first corner Max missed in that lap, would it?

Mostly Lewis fault. But if you're going to race people like that, every so often you have to accept you'll get caught in an accident.

Also, anyone saying RBR or Mercedes are a disgrace for trying to influence the stewards must be new to the sport. They all do it. Every single one of them. Not a single person in the paddock is innocent of that. And that is very much a case of "don't hate the player, hate the game".

The gloves are off now.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Did Verstappen know that Hamilton was still alongside, do we think?

He did, but arguably when it was too late. Chandhok - brilliantly, I think - spotted the smallest of corrections on Verstappen's steering wheel a split second after he looked at Hamilton's wing to the right. Both were already committed.

My view of such penalties is very much the same as VAR in soccer. VAR is there to stop blatant miscarriages of justice - players being five yards offside and the referee missing it, or a phantom goal missed by all the officials. It should not be there to slow it down to a thousandth of a millimeter to work out if a player's fingernail is offside.

Similarly, I believe that the stewards should only intervene on blatant misdemeanours. The very fact that there is a debate here and that both sides are screen shotting the same corner thousandths of seconds apart to make their point demonstrates that what happened is subjective. You cannot make an objective judgement on the subjective. Norris should not have got a penalty in Austria, nor Perez, nor Russell in sprint qualifying.

The stewards should be ruling on pitstop infringements, speeding in the pitlane, ignoring yellow flags and intervene when a driver blatantly clatters into someone, like Schumacher did on occasion. When you start making calls one side in the other in an impassioned debates*, drivers will refrain from creating these impassioned debates by risking a penalty. And that is when you get processional racing.

The court of law operates on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt," so why shouldn't we here?

* And the price we pay for this is that every fan who passionately supports a driver needs to be prepared that sometimes their hero may lose out big time. That's racing.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Did Verstappen know that Hamilton was still alongside, do we think?

Max had the much faster racing line, Lewis should have backed off

But Lewis seems to think everyone should roll over and play dead like Bottas when he wants to overtake.

This was the 3rd Red Bull car he punted off in under 2 years

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The gloves are off now.

When the dust has settled about this incident, we will realise...the dust will not settle anymore.

The civil aspect of this championship rivalry is over. It's war. And it's brilliant.

[S griffin]

The incident happened because two drivers did not want to concede. Hopefully it gets sorted out. We don't need this to escalate. They need to be careful

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The incident happened because two drivers did not want to concede. Hopefully it gets sorted out. We don't need this to escalate. They need to be careful

I thought it was generally accpeted that it was the pursuing driver's responsibility to avoid contact in these situations, hence the stewards comment..

When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.

Thereby the stewards are saying that it was Hamilton's place to avoid contact, not Verstappen's.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

The court of law operates on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt," so why shouldn't we here?

That's criminal law in England and Wales; Civil law in England and Wales is on the balance of probabilities when discussing negligence etc.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

.... I'm going 60:40 in this against Lewis ....

That was my conclusion from the moment I saw it, and nothing after has changed my mind. Max and Lewis are big boys: they'll get over it. Christian Horner was way out of order with his comments, but that's what we can expect from him in those circumstances.