2007 ALMS Season

[Mal]

I think Roger Penske will be very happy. I think the more LMP2 cars they sell the more likely they are to upgrade the works cars to LMP1 after all most privateers will not want to compete against works cars.

[dedalus5150]

Also, the more Porsche Spyders the less chance of performance adjustments from one team being so dominant.

[KA]

Originally Posted by isynge

Being after lunch and inherently more positive - could we see this as potentially an opportunity for LMP1 in the US? Okay, Audi's participation is up in the air at the moment, and Dyson's gone, but does that make LMP1, with potentially three auto entries to Le Mans, a more appealing prospect, and thus making finding some funding to run the series a touch easier?

Interesting comment in DSC's piece on Dyson's Porsches which maybe hints you could be right- a quote from Chris Dyson:

“I think we will find buyers for the two Lolas,” he suggests – and why not?

just a throwaway remark, or might there be a potential customer in the wings to take them on? It's followed by a suggestion that the strength of LMP2 might encourage 'at least one entrant' to look towards LMP1.

I can see the logic- as a privateer, if you know you won't have the package to win, would you rather spend your time finishing third in LMP1 behind the 2 Audis, or maybe 6th/7th in LMP2 behind Penske, Dyson and a couple of Acuras....?

[dedalus5150]

Originally Posted by KA

Interesting comment in DSC's piece on Dyson's Porsches which maybe hints you could be right- a quote from Chris Dyson:

“I think we will find buyers for the two Lolas,” he suggests – and why not?

just a throwaway remark, or might there be a potential customer in the wings to take them on? It's followed by a suggestion that the strength of LMP2 might encourage 'at least one entrant' to look towards LMP1.

Maybe Autocon might be interested in fielding 1 year old ex-Dysons instead of 2 year old ex-Dysons?

[ger80]

Originally Posted by dedalus5150

Maybe Autocon might be interested in fielding 1 year old ex-Dysons instead of 2 year old ex-Dysons?

Maybe someone builds them back to LMP2, the chassis is the same and AER engines are mostly leased, arent they?
No its time for Audi to ask about performance balancing to get the R10 in the LMP2 class. Driving in a class with only 2 other very old cars makes so sense.
Is it possble to drive "Hybrid LMP2" with the Autocon ex Dyson cars in ALMS 2007 too?

[Ranald]

At the end of the DSC article on Dyson they mention that Mazda are due to make a significant announcement soon involving AER.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Ranald

At the end of the DSC article on Dyson they mention that Mazda are due to make a significant announcement soon involving AER.

Rebadging the AER engine (like MG did) is probably the easiest and cheapest way for Mazda to get competative.

[KA]

Originally Posted by ger80

Maybe someone builds them back to LMP2, the chassis is the same and AER engines are mostly leased, arent they?
No its time for Audi to ask about performance balancing to get the R10 in the LMP2 class. Driving in a class with only 2 other very old cars makes so sense.
Is it possble to drive "Hybrid LMP2" with the Autocon ex Dyson cars in ALMS 2007 too?

At a guess not without departing from ACO rules, or converting them to hybrid spec. From what I very vaguely remember, back in 2004/5, didn't RML/Mike Newton look into converting their MG-Lola to hybrid and decide that buying the new B05/40 was an easier and cheaper option?

I can just imagine the reaction from Penske, Dyson, Acura etc if Audi were to suggest performance balancing the R10 into P2...

[dedalus5150]

I doubt Audi would go through the mess of getting major rule changes and making significant alterations to their already highly expensive R10's. It would be much easier for them to simply keep the cars in Europe to fight Pescarolo and Peugeot.

[prototype]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Rebadging the AER engine (like MG did) is probably the easiest and cheapest way for Mazda to get competative.

If you think an AER engine is going to be competitive next year.

[ger80]

Its very easy to say that the Lola chassis was the problem this year, but I think thats not fair to Mr. Scotney and his crew. The intersport LMP2 Lola was not much slower than the Porsche and they didnt had Michelin tires and not that sort of top drivers. Both Lola LMP1 teams (Dyson & Chamberlain) used AER engines. This engines havent been used by any other LMP1 team. So it might be the chassis or the engine, nobody really knows. Would be nice to have a LMP1 Lola Judd 5.5 next year with Michelin tires and good driver to see whats the real problem. Additonally the Lola LMP1 is the car which has the biggest disadvantage due to the 925kg rule because they have enough room for balast weight with 900kg. The cars is about 820 ... 840kg

[JAG]

Originally Posted by isynge

Well, Dyson and Porsche are official now. It's interesting, thinking back to a year or so ago, the non appearance of the first RS Spyder at PLM was termed by one member as possibly being "the end of the ALMS", now, to my eyes, the appearance of another pair, sounds potentially the end for LMP1 in the ALMS.

I simply can't see Audi turning up week in week out to trounce Autocon - equally I can't see the ACO standing by if IMSA tries to juggle the rules so somehow the LMP2s can regularly contend for outright victories against an R10.

Looking back it all seems sadly inevitable. Audi didn't like performance balancing, so they threaten to leave. Dyson see no benefit in racing on their own (Autocon notwithstanding) so they head to LMP2. Audi's left all alone...

Don't get me wrong - this news transforms LMP2 in the US into something genuinely fascinating, and in so many ways I'm looking forward to Sebring, but it doesn't stop there being a tinge of regret. Surely some sort of common sense way could have been seen to preserve LMP1 in the US? Couldn't it?

I'm convinced this is the begining of the end for the ALMS/ACO relationship.

Either the ALMS has to ditch Audi or radically change the regs to allow P2's to compete overall.

What I don't understand is why the ALMS management seem to be immune from cristicism. They have managed the LMP1 and GT1 classes disastrously, yet wow betide anyone who critizes the untouchables!

They've upset Audi, failed to keep Dyson in P1, failed to attract the strongly rumoured Courage Cosworths, failed to attract Zytek, and failed to attract Creation (if there was hope before Dyson's switch, I doubt they'd run now, though I hope I'm wrong).

Rightly or wrongly the LMS is subjected to snide criticism, yet the only major criticism is the lack of promotion, which you would think can be easilty addressed. Meanwhile the ALMS hasfundamental problems in P1, P2 (wasn;t that supposed to be a privateer class?) and GT1.

P1 could be no more, GT1 meanwhile could collapse at any time, shouldn't the ALMS management be under some scrutiny, IMO they've presided over a series thats going tits up!

Every season the mantras been 'wait till next year', 2007 was meant to be the breakthrough year, instead the ALMS is effectively a two class series!

[dj choc ice]

if there was to be a rule change to allow LMP2 cars to run to the LMP1 pace why not, do what happened with the zytek 04S?

the zytek for 2004 became an LMP1 it got a bigger restrictor and LMP1 size wheels and tyres.

although it sounds like a crude thing to do it should work

bigger restrictor for LMP2 car's to bring power to around 550bhp.

LMP1 spec tyres and wheels and bigger LMP1 spec brakes.

should this bring the ALMS into line atleast with the LMP2 and LMP1 side of things.

as for GT1 well i cant see a future for this class in the ALMS, things are looking rather bleak for this class next year.

and i agree with JAG, thinks do look as if they are going tits up in the ALMS, the problem of poor grids in each class is probably going to finish off ties with the ACO, and destroy the LMP1 and GT1 classes.

my question is how the IMSA top brass have allowed this to happen, surely they could have perhaps done a better job at attracting a few more LMP1 team's or GT1 team's.

afterall there must be a few grandAM teams looking for a change like ganassi, krohn and so on.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

the zytek for 2004 became an LMP1 it got a bigger restrictor and LMP1 size wheels and tyres.

So did the Lola B160.

Although, don't think they got bigger wheels or restrictors. It was more or less the 675 vs. 900 formula merged.

[AU N EGL]

It will be quite a challange for the promotors that is for sure, with two competitive classes.

Maybe with two clases LPM and GT, manufactures could make more customer cars to fit one or the other class.

IIRC that Creation and Zytech could not get the sponsors to play in the ALMS, not that they did not want to, just a matter of not having the funding to race on both sides of the pond.


Personally I think the rules for the next few years, requiring biofuels, electric/ fuel hybrid and energy recovery devices, smaller powerplants, less noise, will kill motorsports.

The only real competition is the Lemans start where the drivers run acorss the front straight then jump into there race cars and take off. Oh wait. The killed that too.


Historic racing will get the spectators then.

[JAG]

'IIRC that Creation and Zytech could not get the sponsors to play in the ALMS, not that they did not want to, just a matter of not having the funding to race on both sides of the pond. '

That's a failure on the ALMS's part, how many P1 and GT1 teams have pulled plans due to funding.

Teams seem to prefer Grand Am or the, we keep being told, struggling Champ Car/IRL series.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by JAG

What I don't understand is why the ALMS management seem to be immune from cristicism. They have managed the LMP1 and GT1 classes disastrously, yet wow betide anyone who critizes the untouchables!

They're not untouchable in my eyes. But I'm really not sure who is to blame in this case. In GT1, the Corvette dominance has certainly hurt that class. Same in P1 with Audi I suppose. But how can the ALMS management cure this?

Performance ballancing? Well I'm against that completely. And I think it was managed very poorly this year. Especially with regards to GT1. It's a slippery slope as well. Because every competitor that feels they are at a disadvantage can exploit this rule (or just exploit for benefit). So I was not happy with the ALMS management of that situation. P1 was slightly better, but only because the changes seemed less flipant.

But you cannot invent competition for Audi and Corvette. So what do you, bar them from the series? There goes the promotion aspect.

Creation clearly wanted to come over and said as much. Zytek to. I suppose the ALMS could have found them a sponsor, or helped. But who's to say they didn't try?

The LMS has been quite fortunate from my point of view. The biggest thing they have done is just to provide a place for European teams to compete. But they have not had the manufacturer presence. Knowing the ACO, they would not have gone down the performance ballancing route. So a manufacturer can dominate there as well. Is that poor management, or the nature of racing?

[dj choc ice]

i believe the switch made by dyson is in a way too blame for atleast some of this, they were afterall the only major competition in LMP1 to the audi R10's.

if i was audi like JAG said i wouldnt stick around to quash a team with an old and uncompetitive car.

i would switch to the LMS after all audi's arch rival peugeot are doing a full season in the LMS.

all the LMS would need is perhaps a better advertising and promo programme, while the ALMS appears to need a whole reform.

[JAG]

We keep being told the ALMS is super attractive to sponsors, TV, spectators etc. If that was the case, like F1 but to a lesser extent, teams would be willing to compete for podiums, but not neccesarily race wins.

How many teams compete in Champ Car and IRL that don't come close to winning races?

Why do they compete?

Are we saying in the whole of North America only one team, Autocon, is prepared to take on Audi?

Obviously the ALMS is only attractive to teams and sponsors if you're a regular winner.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

The LMS has been quite fortunate from my point of view. The biggest thing they have done is just to provide a place for European teams to compete. But they have not had the manufacturer presence. Knowing the ACO, they would not have gone down the performance ballancing route. So a manufacturer can dominate there as well. Is that poor management, or the nature of racing?

Domination is nothing new to Europe, the likes of Jaguar, Mercedes and Porsche have all dominated at one time, but there has always been half a dozen privateers prepared to battle it out between themselves, effectively two races in one class.

Maybe Europe has more Gentlemen owner/drivers who just want to be part of the show, in the US many more ALMS teams seem to be run as a business, going were the money takes them, i.e. Grand Am.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'm convinced this is the begining of the end for the ALMS/ACO relationship.

Either the ALMS has to ditch Audi or radically change the regs to allow P2's to compete overall.

Why does the ALMS have to ditch Audi, or change the regs? What is it you believe will happen if they don't?

What I don't understand is why the ALMS management seem to be immune from cristicism. They have managed the LMP1 and GT1 classes disastrously, yet wow betide anyone who critizes the untouchables!

They've upset Audi, failed to keep Dyson in P1, failed to attract the strongly rumoured Courage Cosworths, failed to attract Zytek, and failed to attract Creation (if there was hope before Dyson's switch, I doubt they'd run now, though I hope I'm wrong).

Exactly how as IMSA (not ALMS) managed LMP1 poorly? It isn't their job to ensure all these entries happen, or not. Upon what basis do you draw such a fantasy derived conclusion that Creation will decide not to run now, because of Dyson's switch? Give these people some credit.

I agree that the rules have been developed poorly. This isn't IMSA, or the ALMS's fault... it is the ACO. If Audi decides LMS is even worth entering, LMS entrants will understand this first hand.

Rightly or wrongly the LMS is subjected to snide criticism, yet the only major criticism is the lack of promotion, which you would think can be easilty addressed. Meanwhile the ALMS hasfundamental problems in P1, P2 (wasn;t that supposed to be a privateer class?) and GT1.

P1 could be no more, GT1 meanwhile could collapse at any time, shouldn't the ALMS management be under some scrutiny, IMO they've presided over a series thats going tits up!

There is more to criticize the LMS than purely being invisible. Inconsistant dates, last minute schedule changes to tracks nobody wants. How does the ALMS have fundamental problems in P2? This is because you've defined the class as being privateer?? Yes, the ACO made some mumblings about this, but there were no provisos that defined the class as such. P2 is incredibly strong, and going from strength to strength. There will be more privateers joining this battle, and this class will grow.

The series is going tits up? Yes, what a bad trend.... going from 24 cars to something into the thirties... what a shame.

Every season the mantras been 'wait till next year', 2007 was meant to be the breakthrough year, instead the ALMS is effectively a two class series!

I believe that GT1 will be the same as last year. LMP1 will have the same number of cars, though there was potential for more. LMP2 and GT2 will grow, and be fantastic.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by JAG

Domination is nothing new to Europe, the likes of Jaguar, Mercedes, Porsche have all dominated and one time, but there has always been half a dozen privateers prepared to battle it out between themselves, effectively two races in one class.

Grand-Am has probably been the privateer option here unfortunately. And I'm not even sure that it's a cheaper (well much cheaper) option in terms of dollars. And being competitive there is no guarantee either.

But going up against Audi or Corvette is daunting. Again, I'm not sure how you manage your way around that issue. And I have yet to see a decent suggestion.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'm convinced this is the begining of the end for the ALMS/ACO relationship.

Either the ALMS has to ditch Audi or radically change the regs to allow P2's to compete overall.

No they don't.

Originally Posted by JAG

They've upset Audi, failed to keep Dyson in P1, failed to attract the strongly rumoured Courage Cosworths, failed to attract Zytek, and failed to attract Creation (if there was hope before Dyson's switch, I doubt they'd run now, though I hope I'm wrong).

Again about upsetting Audi. Really, who cares at this point? We'll talk about this once you've had a season of your fully-stocked privateer P1 class being whipped by the Audis and Peugeots. Until then, you really have no idea.

ALMS didn't fail to keep Dyson in P1. ACO did.

The Cosworths - well, that seems to have been a red herring, unleashed by an overoptimistic Yves Courage. Sounded reasonable in a quid pro quo sense, with CCWS and Cosworth owners giving the ALMS something in return for allowing CCWS to co-opt the ALMS Road America weekend. Seems CCWS owners weren't really intending to do this after all. I fail to see how the Cosworth failure to produce a commercially viable engine program is ALMS' fault.

Zytek and Creation at this point are all down to commercial support, and the fact is that the cost for them to run a 12 race season is double what it will cost to run a 5 race season in Europe. So their sponsors have to pony up that much more, in a marketing environment where NASCAR sucks up every available sponsorship dollar.

Originally Posted by JAG

Rightly or wrongly the LMS is subjected to snide criticism, yet the only major criticism is the lack of promotion, which you would think can be easilty addressed. Meanwhile the ALMS hasfundamental problems in P1, P2 (wasn;t that supposed to be a privateer class?) and GT1.

ALMS is providing what it can, and certainly a ton more than the LMS is able to in terms of actual exposure - yet it's not enough for many big sponsors. As for exposure: it's all about money, and LMS won't have any money to improve their promotion any more than the ALMS has. Unless Peugeot and Audi pay for it, which Audi did not do last year for the ALMS.

I fail to see the problem in P2.

Both Porsche teams are running equal equipment - it would be a requirement of Dyson going with Porsche in the first place. Acura may be a factory *engine* program, but notice how AGR (XM Satellite Radio) and Fernandez (Lowe's) bring significant corporate support? P2 is not in any way a factory class in the ALMS, even when considering Mazda.

That said, even if it were, it seems to me that so long as the ACO rules are so tilted toward diesels, if these companies have no interest in developing a race diesel, why would they run in P1? At least by running in P2 there is official acknowledgement that they've won something. No one gave Dyson any trophies for "first gasoline-powered P1" last year.

As to GT1, this is one class that I really don't understand. It has continued to be undersubscribed since its inception - perhaps there just isn't any interest in a supercar class in North America so long as they can't compete for overall wins. It also doesn't help when Aston Martin won't return phone calls to prospective clients.

I for one think that the ALMS will be far better off in its current guise than they were last year, regardless of what happens in P1.

[dj choc ice]

well if the teams in the LMS followed the same route as the teams from the ALMS.

we would end up with no teams in LMP1 because pescarolo won every race, and we would have an LMP2 class of basically 20 cars atleast!

big manufacturer support is not vital to a series but it does help it out a lot and in the ALMS's case, they need it more than ever in LMP1 and GT1.

there should be more teams willing to make the move to the LMP1 and GT1 classes from other series.

why not a grandAM, champcar or IRL team?

ganassi have a lot of pedigree for a assault on the ALMS.

krohn barbour would be welcomed back with open arms.

and so would a lot of other teams as well.

question is, could we very well be watching the demise of the ALMS unless drastic action is taken before the season begins?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by jhansen

But going up against Audi or Corvette is daunting. Again, I'm not sure how you manage your way around that issue. And I have yet to see a decent suggestion.

The problem with GT1 is one of cost. You can "compete" in LMP1 or LMP2 for less money than GT1. It is hard to build a case whereby many people would be willing to spend that money, instead of going faster in one of the higher classes. The class is a bit of a dead end.

Going against Audi is one thing, it is the rules inequality that becomes the big problem. Privateers can't get a diesel, and really there is little chance to win with the base ACO rules without one...... end of story.