Spectator interest

[Nick49]

Hello,

I watch all sorts of sports car racing (ALMS, FIA GT etc) but I have to agree with Bentley03 that it is the ENDURANCE aspect of the LMS that appeals to me most. No doubt the limited number of races and the big prize of a Le Mans entry accounts for the big grids although I would have thought the series could definitely go to a six race format as well as Le Mans.

Nick

[AU N EGL]

I believe the reasoning behind the 2:45 min race duration for the ALMS races was do to a study of TV veiwership of sporting events.

The TV veiwers would watch for up to 3:00 hours without flipping channels. Baseball and foot ball suffered when the TV broadcast went longer then 3 hours. Plus the networks lost TV advertsing revinew from longer events.

Even NBC threatend NASCAR to shorten its races to fit into a 3 hour format or forget it. That is when another Network picked up the first 1/2 of the NASCAR season.

Thus the 2:45 min race format for ALMS. Now with a great spectator base, a history of good TV ratings ( or relativley good), sponsors who are willing to pay for the TV time, a few of the ALMS races are going to a longer race, 4:00 hours in some cases.

ALMS race broadcasts are split between a major TV chanel, CBS and cable station, SPEED TV. When a ALMS race is on CBS, the TV ratings will rival if not be better then Basball on other channels.

Grand AM is almost only on SPEEDTV, do to the low TV ratings numbers and that GRAND AM plus SPEED TV gets most of their review from NASCAR sponsors.

At least that is somewhat how it works on the left side of the pond. Not sure about the right side.

Just because a few diehard fans want the enduracne format, does not mean sponsors will pay for it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Just because a few diehard fans want the enduracne format, does not mean sponsors will pay for it.

Which brings us back to how much you change the sport to make it popular without changing it into a different sport.

Thinking on the most popular format (non-F1/NASCAR) seems to be three fifteen minute races in quick succession with reversed grids and weight penalties for doing well in some quarters. Is that what a LM series is about? Might be good for attracting new fans and TV though!

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I think it's important to realise the reason we see such large grid numbers in the Le Mans Series. It's down to the short (5/6 race) calendar and the six hour format. Plenty of in car time for pay drivers against relatively low travel/preparation costs for a season of racing. Cut the length of the races and increase the number of races and many will encounter budgetry problems. That is the reason the three hour format would be a disaster for the LMS in it's current form.

One other thing, this is meant to be 'endurance' racing, and it's the 'endurance' aspect which interests me most. The 'sprint' races in the ALMS hold very little interest for me, but that's just a personal opinion.

My point exactly, and might I just add that the shorter you make the races the more you'll have a situation like in F1 where teams have no incentive to conduct race repairs etc to their cars. Rather than try and get the car back out, they'll just retire from the race as the distances are too short to warrant the effort. Whereas in a longer race there's nearly always the incentive to get the car back out because there's still time for other teams to have mechanical problems or punctures etc, this is the essence of Endurance racing.

[old man]

We are not talking about changes to the format really, what we were asking from the first was what could be done to give the spectators the right information. When I get to a race I can find out who is leading each class, has had a problem, is fighting back etc. The difficulty I have seen is that the paying spectator has little to help him get this information that would add to his interest and our debate was how to do that.

We also want to improve the TV for the series as it is now and this means getting it onto better chanels from what has been said here

From information received the actual TV audience has average viewers of an FIA race live of 140,000 world wide, viewers of one hour highlights average 122,000 and half hour highlights 380,000 but these figures are thinly spread across the countries that take the pictures. Actual spectators vary from virtually none at P Ricard to over 100,000 at the Spa 24. It is my opinion that these figures can be greatly imporoved by ensuring that the viewers get more information as is the case with the ALMS which has much better figures both of spectators at the event and viewers of the TV

One concern that I would have as a sponsor is that as the most viewers watch the shortest programme how much exposure do I get if the car is not running at the front overall? Exposure of the classes is poor even in the FIA where there are only two classes, worse still for the 4 class format so that really needs work by the TV companies as we have agreed here (I think) that the class structure is vital to the whole deal.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I believe the reasoning behind the 2:45 min race duration for the ALMS races was do to a study of TV veiwership of sporting events.

The TV veiwers would watch for up to 3:00 hours without flipping channels. Baseball and foot ball suffered when the TV broadcast went longer then 3 hours. Plus the networks lost TV advertsing revinew from longer events.

Even NBC threatend NASCAR to shorten its races to fit into a 3 hour format or forget it. That is when another Network picked up the first 1/2 of the NASCAR season.

Thus the 2:45 min race format for ALMS. Now with a great spectator base, a history of good TV ratings ( or relativley good), sponsors who are willing to pay for the TV time, a few of the ALMS races are going to a longer race, 4:00 hours in some cases.

ALMS race broadcasts are split between a major TV chanel, CBS and cable station, SPEED TV. When a ALMS race is on CBS, the TV ratings will rival if not be better then Basball on other channels.

Grand AM is almost only on SPEEDTV, do to the low TV ratings numbers and that GRAND AM plus SPEED TV gets most of their review from NASCAR sponsors.

At least that is somewhat how it works on the left side of the pond. Not sure about the right side.

Just because a few diehard fans want the enduracne format, does not mean sponsors will pay for it.

Since many ALMS network races are delayed, why shouldn't races be 4 hours+?

Looking at the state of ALMS grids, I'd suggest the current pandering to TV is having a negative effect on the series!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Which brings us back to how much you change the sport to make it popular without changing it into a different sport.

As little as possible I hope.

Thinking on the most popular format (non-F1/NASCAR) seems to be three fifteen minute races in quick succession with reversed grids and weight penalties for doing well in some quarters. Is that what a LM series is about? Might be good for attracting new fans and TV though!

Man I hope not. I dont mind seeing satuday night shoot outs on the 1/4 mile oval dirt track once in while. But once evey 10 years is more then enough.

Persoannly I like the 1000 km format. I think that should be the standard for Sports LMP and GT racing.

Selling potential sponsors and TV networks is a differnt story.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

Since many ALMS network races are delayed, why shouldn't races be 4 hours+?

Looking at the state of ALMS grids, I'd suggest the current pandering to TV is having a negative effect on the series!

I dont think soo. ALMS TV ratings are UP, More sponsors are coming to the events. Just the Networks have not fully caught on yet. But hopefully they will.

PPL can only take so much figure 8 bus racing, and offroad ( not rally) racing.and the life styles of the NASCAR rich and almost famous.

Not to mention the most popular car show on Speed TV, "Pinks: Loose the race, loose your ride."

[AU N EGL]

Ok Guys and Gals. We talked this to who knows what end.

WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO to get the promotors off their duff( back sides) ? EMAIL, TELEPHONE, SNAIL MAIL the event promotors? and tell them what we want in an event??

or ???? Sugestions plz

[JAG]

I believe many of the suggestions are already being put in place for the LMS, this is an assumption on my part but I firmly beleive the ACO know what is required.

I'm sure during the various ACO meetings with Peugeot and Audi the future of the LMS has been discussed.

Peugeot wouldn't be investing so much in the 908 program AND the 206 suppot package if they didn't have confidence in the series, escpecially after their experiences with the 3.5l Group C World Championship!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Since many ALMS network races are delayed, why shouldn't races be 4 hours+?

Looking at the state of ALMS grids, I'd suggest the current pandering to TV is having a negative effect on the series!

1)You would prefer them delayed and edited, to fit into a time constraint,as opposed to taped or live and in their entirety? I am not sure that I have the confidence in the network's (mostly CBS and NBC where most of the taped delayed races are) providing coverage to show what I consider pertinent vs. advertising?! Speed has a much better broadcast team when it comes to pleasing the fan.

2) Well I have looked and can not find the #'s to support that! Total grid size in 05 & 06 were larger than 04(#'s from ALMS archive). Granted you may not like the overall mix but to say it is in decline is somewhat of a misnomer. It is the 800 pound Gorilla's in P-1 and GT-1 that are affecting those classes in the ALMS!

L.P.

[Danske]

The ALMS network broadcasts were already edited down to two hours, either by showing a short recap of the first hour and joining the race live or by time-compressing the first hour and a half into one half hour to catch up to live about ninety minutes from the finish. IIRC, last year they settled on the "join live and show a recap" method exclusively, even when the broadcast was the following day. Presuming they'd use that same method for six-hour races, basically showing the last two hours live with sparse highlights of the first four hours, I'd have to say that would blow chunks.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

1)
2) Well I have looked and can not find the #'s to support that! Total grid size in 05 & 06 were larger than 04(#'s from ALMS archive). Granted you may not like the overall mix but to say it is in decline is somewhat of a misnomer. It is the 800 pound Gorilla's in P-1 and GT-1 that are affecting those classes in the ALMS!
L.P.

From the IMSA web site, provisional starting grids for 2003 to 2006 At Sebring:

2003--55
2004--44
2005--39
2006--36

Bob

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

From the IMSA web site, provisional starting grids for 2003 to 2006 At Sebring:

2003--55
2004--44
2005--39
2006--36

Bob

My bad. As I was quoting #'s from ALMS Season reviews which only go back with race results to 04. After checking the IMSA archive your #'s are correct. But in 01 Sebring only had 36 (2 were D Qed from 38) and 02 I can not get in to as it has a problem.
That being said, Sebring is not indicative of an average grid size.
With the exception of 03 which seems to be the best year for grid size at every race, the average is about 23 per race, per year(except the races that draw LMS cars). It seems that after the 03 season we started losing the Panoz Proto's,Saleen's and Vipers and that brought the count back down to its average. I still think it has nothing to do with pandering to t.v. and everything to do with the level of competition in P-1 & GT-1.

L.P.

[Graham Goodwin]

2002 was the first year I went to Sebring and from memory it was oversubscribed (about 66 / 67 entries)

There was a limit of 60 starters but they nominated a reserve so there were 61 cars there (I think the reserve was a Graham Nash Porsche)

As i recall we lost a Lola to a fire in practice and one other car too - memory fails me here so 59 cars started the race

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

My bad. As I was quoting #'s from ALMS Season reviews which only go back with race results to 04. After checking the IMSA archive your #'s are correct. But in 01 Sebring only had 36 (2 were D Qed from 38) and 02 I can not get in to as it has a problem.
That being said, Sebring is not indicative of an average grid size.
With the exception of 03 which seems to be the best year for grid size at every race, the average is about 23 per race, per year(except the races that draw LMS cars). It seems that after the 03 season we started losing the Panoz Proto's,Saleen's and Vipers and that brought the count back down to its average. I still think it has nothing to do with pandering to t.v. and everything to do with the level of competition in P-1 & GT-1.

L.P.

I agree TV is not the problem.
The problem is simply the rules, nothing less, nothing more.

Until they are drastically changed, nothing else will.
Bob

[old man]

I like the TV from the ALMS so would agree with Bob on that but if the entrants do not like the rules and the rules have to be as the LM24 we have something of an impasse. Sorry to go over old ground Bob but refresh my memory on your view of the rules please, can you give the post# if expressed before?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by old man

I like the TV from the ALMS so would agree with Bob on that but if the entrants do not like the rules and the rules have to be as the LM24 we have something of an impasse. Sorry to go over old ground Bob but refresh my memory on your view of the rules please, can you give the post# if expressed before?

An abstract, and yes this has been gone over before.(in more than one thread but I cannot give you a title of any)

The more controlling the rules, the more it cost to go fast.
Factories can afford to spend thousands to fix one problem, prievateers cannot.
It used to be, pre-spec. type rules, that one operated between basic minimum and maximumss. Any team could exploit the variables inbetween to find their own "unfair advantage".

A hypocrisy in the IMSA method, is total spec. output GT engines, yet transmissions that cost 50 to 100 thousand dollars and are totally unrelated to the prod. car.
It seems they want one to spend a lot of money, then be slowed down to their dictates.
Bob

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

A hypocrisy in the IMSA method, is total spec. output GT engines, yet transmissions that cost 50 to 100 thousand dollars and are totally unrelated to the prod. car.
It seems they want one to spend a lot of money, then be slowed down to their dictates.
Bob

Bob
You mean the $92,000 Xtrac sequential transmssion that is in the Corvette C6r and the Audi R-10 use wont fit into your DD ??

that is $92,000 plus the cost of spare gears.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

1)You would prefer them delayed and edited, to fit into a time constraint,as opposed to taped or live and in their entirety? I am not sure that I have the confidence in the network's (mostly CBS and NBC where most of the taped delayed races are) providing coverage to show what I consider pertinent vs. advertising?! Speed has a much better broadcast team when it comes to pleasing the fan.

2) Well I have looked and can not find the #'s to support that! Total grid size in 05 & 06 were larger than 04(#'s from ALMS archive). Granted you may not like the overall mix but to say it is in decline is somewhat of a misnomer. It is the 800 pound Gorilla's in P-1 and GT-1 that are affecting those classes in the ALMS!

L.P.

It's just a hunch, but IMO, if the ALMS had five or six 4 hours+ races, in addition to Sebring and PLM, I would expect grid sizes to grow.

There are plenty of very rich guys competing in historics and Grand Am, if they had the seat time I'm quite sure the ALMS would be an attactive proposition, regardless of whether they had a shot at victory.

The LMS has found the 1000k format gives funded gentlemen drivers a platform to compete, in the process putting another car on the grid and a seat to one or more professional drivers.

Pescarolo showed they could accomodate a good pay driver, in addition to Collard and Boulion, and still win.


As for TV that should be decided after the series determines whats the best race format for it's competitors.

Motors TV and Speed can cover endurance races live throughout a season, network and better known cable/satellite stations can carry 1 hour+ highlights packages.

I've been watching the V8 Supercar review on Motors TV, I'm suprised how many 500K+ events they have, all covered live in Australia, with packed grandstands and cars plastered with big name sponsors.

It's obviously possible to make endurance events appeal to the general public, TV and sponosrs, as Le Mans, PLM ans Sebring have done for many, many years!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's just a hunch, but IMO, if the ALMS had five or six 4 hours+ races, in addition to Sebring and PLM, I would expect grid sizes to grow.

There are plenty of very rich guys competing in historics and Grand Am, if they had the seat time I'm quite sure the ALMS would be an attactive proposition, regardless of whether they had a shot at victory.

The LMS has found the 1000k format gives funded gentlemen drivers a platform to compete, in the process putting another car on the grid and a seat to one or more professional drivers.

Pescarolo showed they could accomodate a good pay driver, in addition to Collard and Boulion, and still win.


As for TV that should be decided after the series determines whats the best race format for it's competitors.

Motors TV and Speed can cover endurance races live throughout a season, network and better known cable/satellite stations can carry 1 hour+ highlights packages.

I've been watching the V8 Supercar review on Motors TV, I'm suprised how many 500K+ events they have, all covered live in Australia, with packed grandstands and cars plastered with big name sponsors.

It's obviously possible to make endurance events appeal to the general public, TV and sponosrs, as Le Mans, PLM ans Sebring have done for many, many years!

First let me get this out of the way.
The ALMS needs to use the LMS as a model to become a more successful series?(7 races instead of 12) Advertisers (sponsor's) want to be on a time compressed highlight show? Speed will show every race in its entirety that is over a 3hr format? Grids would grow with just an increase in race length? A gentleman driver in a race to win series,does not want to win? Henri is in good financial (sponsorship) health this year? The ALMS can dictate how much air time they get, just willy nilly?
Austailian V8 Super Cars is the equivalent to Nascar in the States, Nascar can run a 500 mile 804km in a 3 to 4hr window. That is their long race's.

LeMans and Sebring are and have been Events of world class competition for decades and pretty much the pinnacle of Sports Car racing in their own perpective region. They are exceptions to the basic rule because of their Renown. There has been so many renditions of Sports Car Series that it is mind boggling at times. And they are all gone. Why? Because they could or would not keep the interest of the majority of people and therefore the interest of sponsors so they withered and died! A lot of that has to do with exposure and a format that is based on keeping their interest up. With a mix of length it gives a chance of doing that and still retain the longer races while drawing sponsors.

I personally would love to see grids of 50 to 60 cars at every race and those races to be 750k's + but I do believe that IMO your getting the cart before the horse as it applies to the rest of the world. I believe the biggest question is how to grow and sustain the sport

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I personally would love to see grids of 50 to 60 cars at every race and those races to be 750k's + but I do believe that IMO your getting the cart before the horse as it applies to the rest of the world. I believe the biggest question is how to grow and sustain the sport

L.P.

I agree here

[old man]

Having been to both ALMS and LMS beieve me my American friends ALMS has nothing to learn from LMS really. The spectator is catered for by ALMS and certainly not by LMS, the TV so far for the LMS is usually a 3 hour delayed "highlights", only one race was in full and live last year. The idea that paying drivers get good seat time for more or less the same as in FIA GT but with less events so less overall cost is very real but when a team wants to win it gets two pro's and pays them.

I think you may be able to say that in view of the crown figures for Sebring, Petit and Laguna the longer races attract better crowds so perhaps the ALMS should not be afraid of longer races.

In my opinion the FIA this year with 2 mandatory stops (not yet defined so far as I know) in 2 hours racing will be strange races. 3 x 40 minute sprints or what, depends how SRO have defined the mandatory pit stop, but if you were a paying driver how much is a 40 minute stint worth? So in LMS he can get 5 x 120 minutes = 600 minutes racing, in FIA he can get 10 x 40 minutes racing = 400 minutes. That is what makes the LMS a better value deal for the wealthy gent and the prospect of an emtry for the 24 if they get lucky and finish in the top 2 at the end of the year adds to the spice, two pro's and a good am could do it

SRO has just covered the latter point for the FIA but I think his format will lose him the paying drivers this year, that, however may add to the quality of the racing.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by old man

H

In my opinion the FIA this year with 2 mandatory stops (not yet defined so far as I know) in 2 hours racing will be strange races. 3 x 40 minute sprints or what, depends how SRO have defined the mandatory pit stop, but if you were a paying driver how much is a 40 minute stint worth? So in LMS he can get 5 x 120 minutes = 600 minutes racing, in FIA he can get 10 x 40 minutes racing = 400 minutes. That is what makes the LMS a better value deal for the wealthy gent and the prospect of an emtry for the 24 if they get lucky and finish in the top 2 at the end of the year adds to the spice, two pro's and a good am could do it

I have looked on the Grand AM wed site for teams wanting paying drivers. A Koni Challange Mazda team to drive a Mazda RX8 or Grand AM new Mustang team

The Mazda team wanted $7,000 per race, the Mustang team wanted $30,000 per race.

The ALMS or LMs 'paying' not Paid drivers have very deep pockets or big sponsors.

[HORNDAWG]

I think you may be able to say that in view of the crown figures for Sebring, Petit and Laguna the longer races attract better crowds so perhaps the ALMS should not be afraid of longer races

.

I do not think they are. Nor am I implying that longer races are bad. I think ALMS, and I myself, believe that a mix is required to keep everything in balance for continuous sustained growth.

L.P.