[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[templer]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

Salvaged 6th and 8th. It will be a long year for them for sure. I thought they would be closer but it's clear that they are way off the pace

True but I think they have already made the right conclusions. Forget this season and concentrate all efforts on the new car for 2016.

[bentley speed 8]

Yes. Let's hope they pull something like Audi did this year

[kvenom]

Davidson and Buemi must be gutted seeing Hulkenberg win on his first attempt.

[Alex Langheck]

Hopefully everything is going towards next year. Are they still going to be hamstrung by a 'small' budget? Will they ever run 3 cars?
I'm not sure they should be planning a WRC programme for 2017 when they don't seem to have enough budget for 1 world motorsport programme.

[Acid09]

Like I said before, I'm happy their disadvantage was so blatantly obvious this year, there's no sugarcoating or excuses for the beancounters anymore.

No race luck in this world would have helped to swing this around Toyota's way, they couldn't even capitalize from Audi's countless little niggles towards the end because there were just so damn far off. Hopefully this will help convince the big wigs to give TMG proper funding.

With that being said, I'm glad that Davidson's shunt was meaningless in the end, must have been horrible for him and I guess that eases the sting of it a bit.

With regards to the WEC, it would be stupid to put any more resources into this car, it's obviously at the very end of its development cycle. They're far off in the standings and they already won it last year. They need to focus on the big one now, more than ever. The clock is running, just 341 days until Test Day..

[deggis]

Doom and gloom: I wonder if is a realistic option that they'll simply skip rest of the season except Fuji because it might be just cheaper to pay the penalties for not showing up. Or possibly reduce to 1 car. In that case, WEC would have an alarming issue.

[TF110]

First lets look at the bright side. Davidson managed to get a 3:20.8, thats a lot better than 3:23's they did last year. In 2013, they were way off pace, but they came back with a much better 2nd half winning Fuji and Bahrain. It might not happen that way again, but theyre not throwing in the towell.

Second thing is the WRC project is parallel that of the WEC one. Remember, they have seperate budgets and programs and both will be run at the same time. TMG is big enough for multiple operations. Currently, Force India uses TMG to design their F1 car. So theyre not stretched too thin, and they wont be when WRC comes on full time. They just need more money because Porsche and Audi are spending a lot more and its reaping benefits.

[kvenom]

Its unfortunate that Toyota's culture is one of the most conservative and stubborn in the industry. They spent big on F1 and nothing came of it, now why spend that much with no guarantee of results? I think as long as they aren't spending a fortune and gaining some tech for their road cars (like the stuff going on the new Prius) ToMoCo won't care about the results. Akio might, TMG might, but I doubt the board cares.

[FIRE]

They have to do a lot of work.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

Second thing is the WRC project is parallel that of the WEC one. Remember, they have seperate budgets and programs and both will be run at the same time. TMG is big enough for multiple operations. Currently, Force India uses TMG to design their F1 car. So theyre not stretched too thin, and they wont be when WRC comes on full time. They just need more money because Porsche and Audi are spending a lot more and its reaping benefits.

It's not as parallel as you might think. Good people from the WEC program are going to get pulled to the WRC program which will spread the talent. Companies like TMG don't hire that many employees, they have very high standards.

Also TMG does not design the Force India Car so please don't think TMG has the staffing right now to develop their own F1 car.... Force India is just using TMG's windtunnel. Force India has their own Aerodynamicist who develop models to test at TMG's windtunnel.

[Rodger Davies]

TMG have been hiring a lot of people for the WRC programme, but I assume it will be a mix. Lots of job adverts were the first 'confirmation' of the rallying return. They certainly won't need any of the engine and hybrid team anyway, and that's arguably their key disadvantage in P1 this year.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

I think we should we just start a Kickstarter Project to fund the Toyota Effort

VW group spends how much to field these 6 cars? $1billion last I read. Toyota is a penny pinching Jap fest of a soulless car company busy bean counting at the Plants.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

VW group spends how much to field these 6 cars? $1billion last I read.

In three years maybe.

[Rodger Davies]

Reading this thread it makes me think some would rather they didn't bother. They will spend what they feel they can and I'd rather have two slightly 'underfunded' cars than none at all.

Realise that they're probably paying more than Audi were in the pre-hybrid era.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

TMG have been hiring a lot of people for the WRC programme, but I assume it will be a mix. Lots of job adverts were the first 'confirmation' of the rallying return. They certainly won't need any of the engine and hybrid team anyway, and that's arguably their key disadvantage in P1 this year.

probably.

[Gingers4Justice]

Toyota were horribly off the pace and the little something I was hoping they would show never materialised.

In any other year, they would have been close enough to earn a podium with the kind of run the #2 had. But this wasn't any other year - they had 6 hares in front of them to their two tortoises and although the Audis had a rather messy, un-Audi-like race, their issues were pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Certainly the worst of their delays was still less than what we saw from the winning car last year...

Toyota really need to come up with something fast, and finalise it soon. As do Audi - I think everyone underestimated how big a leap Porsche were going to make and it's taken this weekend to really slap everyone round the face. Toyota looked like a well-run privateer, and Audi, who used to be known for building LMPs like tanks, are literally having to tape their cars together trying to catch up.

[Articus]

whoops a little too off topic on my part.

[tyronnezx]

We can all say it's the engine, its he hybrid or aero but at the end it really is money, and Money only so in Toyota's case its the lack of. I think They either pull their heads in and secure the right budget and talent for 2016 or just burn this to the ground and go home. Porsche just schooled everyone on how to win lemans in 2 years against tough competition and if this doesn't send a wakeup call to TMC, then i dont know what will. Im absolutely shocked to see no one in TMG protesting about the budget allocated to them. Surely your Morale will suffer wen you realize your generals can only send you nice shiny knives to a gunfight

[aneesh99]

Man, it's nice to be back on the forums after such a long time!

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Im absolutely shocked to see no one in TMG protesting about the budget allocated to them.

It may not be vocalized in the public arena but it's been/being talked about. There's a lot of restructuring in the works for TMG.

[mikuni]

I like it that it is not publicised.

I'm worried about LMP1, due to manufacturer involved. This year Porsche wiped the floor clean with even Audi. Had their performance been more similar to 2014, even Nissan wouldn't have looked quite so bad, and Toyota would have been a lot closer.

As soon as budgets start growing, things get out of hand. After a few years the manufacturers start either achieving their goals and retiring, or getting scared off by the amounts required and leaving.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by mikuni

I like it that it is not publicised.

I'm worried about LMP1, due to manufacturer involved. This year Porsche wiped the floor clean with even Audi. Had their performance been more similar to 2014, even Nissan wouldn't have looked quite so bad, and Toyota would have been a lot closer.

As soon as budgets start growing, things get out of hand. After a few years the manufacturers start either achieving their goals and retiring, or getting scared off by the amounts required and leaving.

I was wandering this too. Even if Toyota is signed up until at least 2017, if the next two Le-mans races fails to yield that elusive victory, i think they will throw in the towel and use the "full focus on WRC” excuse. Unfortunately this is the general casualty of a series getting popular. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and some will sell their parents to get more than others. F1 is a very good example of that. Four car manufacturers racing against privateers and an energy drinks company is laughable at best. I hope the ACO figures out a way to make the series sustainable before we end up in a Mercedes GP situation where they are outspending everyone and scaring off the competition. Last thing the WEC wants to do is follow f1’s footsteps

Question is what is being done to control the spending while keeping innovation open in the series?

[TF110]

This is why Toyota has been vocal about keeping costs down. I donno about a budget cap, but we dont need VAG or Toyota or Nissan or whoever throwing around $200-300million each year. As long as the wec has rules aligned with Toyota's interest, like hybrids and maybe even hydrogen(?) I think its attractive for them. I hope they stay for at least a few more years.

[mikuni]

I wonder if P1 way even create a sub-tier, where the big boys play out the front, and the lower-budget manufacturers play with the privateers. That wouldn't be all bad, at least when Audi, Porsche and whoever else wants to spend the money do eventually bail out, there will be others to pick up the slack.

[Coopz21 x]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

We can all say it's the engine, its he hybrid or aero but at the end it really is money, and Money only so in Toyota's case its the lack of. I think They either pull their heads in and secure the right budget and talent for 2016 or just burn this to the ground and go home. Porsche just schooled everyone on how to win lemans in 2 years against tough competition and if this doesn't send a wakeup call to TMC, then i dont know what will. Im absolutely shocked to see no one in TMG protesting about the budget allocated to them. Surely your Morale will suffer wen you realize your generals can only send you nice shiny knives to a gunfight

Whilst i agree that Porsche have schooled everyone on how to win Le Mans in 2 years, i strongly disagree with your comments about Toyota, just because we can't actually see someone protesting about the budget doesnt mean its not happening inside.... and to say they should otherwise burn this to the ground and go home is insane. They are yes well off the pace this season, but think about when they came into the WEC on a small budget they made Audi play catch up, and that was running a program that was halted wasnt it?

[JacobP]

I hope Toyota does not quit Le Mans racing. For one, they have the best sounding LMP1 car. And what happened to the road relevance? I think among the LMP1 cars, the Toyota prototype is best connected to a production car technology of the same manufacturer (the Prius )