What is Aston Martin up to?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

You clearly heard something that wasn't said. He never blamed the competition for the current state of AMR-One, but responded to the critics saying that AMR-One engine can never work as a concept.

It seems many people are seriously offended by current AMR performance to the level of being unable to read and hear for a short while after they're reminded of Aston Martin. So they start typing vigorously. That's how this thread's so popular.

I'm wondering if you heard the same interview we did. The one I heard was on MWM last week. Granted, Hindy was summarizing what was said and he may have been embellishing, but I don't think so. He was the one defending Prodrive (well, kind of) compared to what Daman and Roller had to say (to be fair, Daman's comments about Prodrive simply living off the legacy of Colin McRae may have been diminishing Prodrive's more recent record some, but he and Roller made fair points).

Anyway, to say that Audi and Peugeot are "running scared" of the AMR-One does seem laughable given the performance of the AMR-One at the moment. Maybe Audi and Peugeot are running scared of petrols, who knows (both Audi and Peugeot have said that petrols have an edge - who is lying is hard to judge at the moment), but it seems safe to say that for the moment the AMR-One engine is the last engine they are "running scared" from. Richards would have been much better off defending the reasoning behind the choice (kind of like what knighty did) when responding to the criticism instead of coming up with some lame "they're running scared from us" comment.

There have been a lot of really bad efforts at Le Mans over the years. People talk about JLOC. Ok, you don't even have to go back that far. Look at the Jaguar RSR last year. They don't get as much criticism because at least they kept their mouth shut and kept on working on the car (some progress has been made on that car). That's pretty impressive given Paul Gentilozzi's record for ridiculous comments. I never thought I would say this, but I think Dave Richards may need to take a lesson from Paul Gentilozzi about PR.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by knighty

There seems to be alot of people slamming AMR's I6 turbo engine choice, but there is no substance to back up the slams........Bartensky included.......BMW have decided to ditch their normally aspirated V8 in favour of a twin turbo I6 in mass production, if it was such a bad engine configuration, they wouldnt launch it into mass production........turbocharging an I6 is really nothing to get so heated about........the overall problem with AMR's effort is starting to project so late, they seemed to compress 2 years into less that 1 year.

well i think the difference in conceptt is that the Aston Martin engine has a single turbo while the BMW I6 will be twin turbo. The twin turbo I6 concept seems to be the reliable one.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

well i think the difference in conceptt is that the Aston Martin engine has a single turbo while the BMW I6 will be twin turbo. The twin turbo I6 concept seems to be the reliable one.

Wrong, the latest BMW 3.0 turbo engine has a single twin scroll turbo (known as "TwinPower" brand name). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N55

The big difference is that the BMW engine produces 306 hp from 3.0 liter while the AMR-One engine has to produce 550+ hp from 2.0 liter. With such a big specific power output, the said issues (e.g., crank flex) come into play.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Wrong, the latest BMW 3.0 turbo engine has a single twin scroll turbo (known as "TwinPower" brand name). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N55

The big difference is that the BMW engine produces 306 hp from 3.0 liter while the AMR-One engine has to produce 550+ hp from 2.0 liter. With such a big specific power output, the said issues (e.g., crank flex) come into play.

............

The inline six engine could be switched to a twin turbo configuration in future as the team struggles with a interim turbocharger and manifold position.

-Sam Collins- racecar engineering site.

the single turbo is probably the issue. Were not talking about road cars here....

The difference is most likely application. The BMW can be bulked up considering it's only a road car engine.. The Aston martin engine needs to be used for racing and therefore needs to be as light as possible. It's already supposedly the smallest LMP engine ever....


Remember Mazda's engine woes with the I4. The engine was too light for it's own good. When the ACO increased the minimum weight of LMP2 they took this as a chance to bulk up the engine but that still failed and MAzdahave lost most of their customers....

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

.he single turbo is probably the issue. Were not talking about road cars here....

You are the one who brought up road cars by using the BMW straight 6 engine as "proof" that a twin turbo setup is more reliable

From what we have heard from Aston Martin the turbo is not the cause of their reliability issues. They have had problems with the coating on the cylinder liners, cracks in a pulley and failures of the water pump gearing. And there is the fundemental issue of crankshaft flex that some experts have warned about.

I am sure that they might move to a twin turbo setup in the future, but for other reasons: drivability (less turbo lag), performance (flat torque curve, more power), and/or fuel economy.

[knighty]

I'm sorry but your all off on a tangent here.......single or twin turbo it doesnt really matter, either can be made to work well......remember the old CART V8 turbos, 2.65 litre and singel turbo.......the difference between a good and bad turbo engine is quite simply boost control, this was AMR's problem when exiting the mulsanne corners, whereby the engine was falling off boost........as far as I can see they are not running a fresh air valve and suffered the consequences, this is a big factor in controlling anti-lag and maintaining good plenum pressure.......also BMW's latest I6 twin turbo is well over 400bhp.......I dont think its released yet, just trust me.

regarding torsional vibrations, there are now many torsional dampers and CAE predictive tools available for this to be designed out at the early stages........I6 turbo really is not a bad route........

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

........I6 turbo really is not a bad route........

I'm pleased you posted that (since you're our 'official' 10Tenths engine guru). I've been told the same thing by several people I would consider to be 'knowledgable' about these things. It has been suggested to me that the I6 configuration is perhaps not an obvious route nor an easy route, but by no means a bad/wrong/impossible route.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I'm pleased you posted that (since you're our 'official' 10Tenths engine guru). I've been told the same thing by several people I would consider to be 'knowledgable' about these things. It has been suggested to me that the I6 configuration is perhaps not an obvious route nor an easy route, but by no means a bad/wrong/impossible route.

Nothing comes from heaven, work must be done, and then he will see if it works.

Is there any chance they will spend 2012 testing and then (2013) bring a really competitive car??

[höller]

From what we have heard from Aston Martin the turbo is not the cause of their reliability issues. They have had problems with the coating on the cylinder liners, cracks in a pulley and failures of the water pump gearing. And there is the fundemental issue of crankshaft flex that some experts have warned about.

As already pointed out, drivers were complainig about the cars bad throttle response and driveability of the engine, which behaved like an turbo engine from then 80´s and this was credited with the inline-6-single tc-concept. The inline-6 is not essentially BAD as an turbocharged engine, but it`s bad as an single tc-concept for power cycle reasons (and exhaust line guide reasons). And it`s supoptimal compared with the V6-concept. How could AMR disregard such fundamental issues? This is even more the point as currently they are talking about using biturbo concept which they should have used from the very beginning.
Concerning BMW their engine is not one built for racing purposes and they use some new additional equipment which I described in post # 3137.
So I have the sneaking suspicion AMR rather was referring on the rich I6-heritage of vintage AM as the engine concept was conceived....??

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Is there any chance they will spend 2012 testing and then (2013) bring a really competitive car??

Maybe, but I think AMR's budget is quite contingent on racing. They need outside sponsorship in addition to proving their products to customers and establishing race histories with their cars so that collectors will want them. Plus, they need pay drivers and I'm not sure how many good pay drivers would be interested in paying to become a test driver (unless, of course, they gave them factory GTE seats or something).

I apologize if this is a really dumb question, but would going to a twin turbo setup impair AMR's ability to add any sort of hybrid system to the car? For example, would there still be enough room? I don't know if AMR is interested in going down that route, but I would not be surprised if it is (or was) on their radar.

[AndyN]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You are the one who brought up road cars by using the BMW straight 6 engine as "proof" that a twin turbo setup is more reliable

From what we have heard from Aston Martin the turbo is not the cause of their reliability issues. They have had problems with the coating on the cylinder liners, cracks in a pulley and failures of the water pump gearing. And there is the fundemental issue of crankshaft flex that some experts have warned about.

I am sure that they might move to a twin turbo setup in the future, but for other reasons: drivability (less turbo lag), performance (flat torque curve, more power), and/or fuel economy.

Purely coincidentally I am reading a book about the 1967 Lola Astons. They apparently managed 3 laps and 25 laps, the second one to go out experiencing pulley problems amongst other woes.

Deja vu peut-etre?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by höller

The inline-6 is not essentially BAD as an turbocharged engine, but it`s bad as an single tc-concept for power cycle reasons (and exhaust line guide reasons). And it`s supoptimal compared with the V6-concept. How could AMR disregard such fundamental issues?

Can you explain why a single turbo I6 is worse than a single turbo V6? Or maybe provide a reference? We are talking about a race engine so the exhaust pipes to the turbo are of equal length.

[knighty]

the reference to a twin turbo I6 was merely a point made that a "turbocharged" (single or double) I6 is a logical and safe route for a mass production engine, therefore its certainly not a risk for a race engine.

ragarding AMR blaming their turbo lag issues on an I6 single turbo config, the only two words that come to mind are smoke and mirrors.......its a bit like DR blaming AMR's poor showing on the diesel bias in the ACO rule book......laughable........ certain people in AMR are talking somewhat toungue in cheek....... its easy for them to say something like this to someone like Sam Collins (no disrespect intended please), then he gos and reports it and most people believe it........really its just a big joke

Anti-lag boost control of any turbo engine is a very specialist subject and there are now many ways in which to mitigate/eradicate this, principally:

1) bang-bang style systems - very loud & drinks alot of fuel
2) fresh air valves
3) electronic boost assist - from a small electric supercharger to assist the single turbo.
4) air reservoir systems - used once by subaru WRC
5) VGT - Variable Geometry Turbine - this only helps a little, not a massive amount, contrary to folklore.
6) plus more I'm sure

looking and listening to the AMR1 I dont see that they have any of the above techniques, for the drivers to report it drives like an 80's turbo, there is something fundamentally wrong......principally a short time-scale, not an I6.

[Audi Racer]

soooo........Part of the issue IS the single turbo......We even heard this from Audi with their diesel application of the single turbo. They said that a huge single turbo like that would suffer from Turbo lag and in response Garrett developed a variable geometry turbine turbocharger and that fixed the turbo lag issues.

Sounds like Aston martin is using a large single turbo and it suffers from lag because they aren;t doing anything to counter it? i.e. VTG?

So is that the problem? Seems like the turbo is part of the problem. Even if the Cylinder coatings nvere had issues it seems like the turbo issue would still exist........turbo

[Tim the Grey]

Strikes me Knighty was saying that it's NOT due to a Single BIG turbo, but lack of a correct implementation of this in a modern race car?
Seeing as Audi managed just fine, thank you, with a big single, compared to Pug's twin blower set up.

I just wonder if AML could use some VAG inspired induction tech, and go TFSi, or similar? That way AMR get round low speed boost issues...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

I just wonder if AML could use some VAG inspired induction tech, and go TFSi, or similar? That way AMR get round low speed boost issues...

The AMR-One engine does have direct fuel injection. However, judging from the black smoke they might be struggling with it...

[MitchZ06]

Or running a very rich fuel/air mixture...They could run a blown diffuser with that much exhaust gases.

[canam]

Forget about VAG.

AM have teamed up with Toyota and produced the Aston Martin Cygnet.

If you think the AMR-One looks awful, take a look at this cutie,

[knighty]

correct - the single turbo is just poorly implemented - probably due to lack of time I guess........ the black smoke in that pit exit image is basically un-burnt fuel, this is simply again a turbo-lag issue, neat fuel goes in and there isnt enough air present to burn it, hence it just gets a mild warming and comes out as black smoke.......the same applies to the R18 chuffing black clouds of smoke in the original sebring test.......AMR are in for a shock if they think a twin turbo system will cure their problems, either a parallel, sequential or compound system will be just as problematic.........it would actually be far easier and quicker to implement one of the items on the list I wrote in my last post than a twin turbo system........there is obviously a bogey corner mulsanne where 45mph exit speed is kiling the boost pressure......the whole problem could simply be a gearing issue, whwreby they have let the engine bog down too much, perhaps at their next test track they will mock-up a really slow corner to work on the issue.

failing all the above, the drivers should watch some old senna F1 turbo footage on you tube, he was notorious for "pumping" the throttle while braking and in mid corner in order to keep the engine on boost for the exit launch.......drivers today have it sooo easy!

[Tim the Grey]

Canam? I live 4 miles from AML Gaydon HQ. I've seen them IN THE FLESH...

Knighty. Many thanks. I am learning some handy Pub Racing Bore stuff from you, and then you throw Senna on Max Boost on a Quali Lap into the mix! Didn't like him, but sheeeite he was impressive to watch.

[pederb]

Aston Zagato V12 racer, could this be a replacment for the failed Vantage GT2 project?

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/ast...cer-2011-06-22

[Dead-Eye]

Not really. That's a Nürburgring special, and nothing to do with AMR.

[TF110]

Maybe AMR should get in contact with Lola again, then ask Toyota for more than just giving them an IQ to spruce up. Seems those two (Lola Toyota) are where AMR left off!

[Pandamasque]

That's a strange livery. Plain red and plain green (David Piper Green?) looked better.

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Not really. That's a Nürburgring special, and nothing to do with AMR.

Logically I'd assume it has the Kermit V12 underpinnings, which may have been a development project for future V12 Vantage GT3 car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITQEeM7awOA (4th fly by is the red/white Zagato)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITQEeM7awOA (4th fly by is the red/white Zagato)

Sounds gooooood!