FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

I kind of agree with urdragon here. The GT-AM class should be gone. But for an entirely different reason in my case. In the GT1/GT2 days, the PRO/AM classifications did not exist in ACO racing, since basically every team racing had AM participants.

I understand that the GT-AM basically exists to give the GTE cars better value, but given that with the same material as the PRO class, AM would be about as quick, I think the AM class is sort of a fake class. Let them run together like they used to.

I completely agree. Classes should be defined by technology, not driver skill. I wouldn't even mind a separate Am trophy, like WTCC does with privateer entries vs works cars. It could have the same rules as GTE-AM has now: If you have a one year old car and two Am drivers you are eligibile for the Am trophy. But it should still be one class where all GTE cars can race against each other, and where an Am car that has a really good day can get on the GTE podium and not just the GTE-Am one.

[urdragon]

Well, this discusion is something you will need start in a pair of years so get used to. With more variety available, the space will be more scarce in 2015+.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

There's lots of GTE cars in the World Endurance Championship, and lots of them are all-pro. If there wasn't a GTE-Am class, amateurs wouldn't be abled to fight for podiums. It's a way to let them compete for the win.

Granted, there are more GTE cars running now than there has ever been. But they are still expensive affairs compaired to GT3, wich come aplenty around the world.
GTE needs the wealthy AM's as things stand today, and they probably always will. This is why the AM's need to be catered for, and not forced to race in a fake class, just because mfg's want all PRO lineups in their works cars. Use the GT3 classifications and get quick AM's with dough to the PRO cars, and everything will get smoother and better IMO.

[Speed-King]

If you need another argument against the farce that's GTE-Am, watch the ELMS race... Ram Racing getting away with giving their Am-slot to Matt Griffin is beyond ridiculous.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Spa has never had more than 42 entries as a WEC round, because that's the amount of cars that can fit into the F1 pits.

55 cars in 2011 and yes I know it was an ILMC round

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It's a world championship for crying out loud! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen! And even under the old format there usually were some classes that were more competitive than others, so amateurs usually found a place to have a decent shot at winning without getting their own bespoke class.

By having GTE-Am the series loses diversity and credibility, the day they get rid of it can't come soon enough. I'd much rather have a proper GT2-class (with current GTE being GT1) again than the current farce.

How does the WEC lose diversity and credibility? There is not one series in the world that is all-pro. Racing relies on investors, so why not give them a class for their own?

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by Salamus

How does the WEC lose diversity and credibility? There is not one series in the world that is all-pro. Racing relies on investors, so why not give them a class for their own?

That is not the problem. The problem os the structure of the current AM class, wich is only there to give better second hand value to the PRO cars. The class was instigated to increase longivity to the GTE cars, because the cars are few and far between. I get that they (ACO) didn't want GTE to go the same way GT1 did, but seriously, they could've done something else. Like they are trying to fo now.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Salamus

55 cars in 2011 and yes I know it was an ILMC round

...where that particular limitation did not apply. Although I do wonder whether they still would have turned away cars this year if more had wanted to enter - last year they said they wanted to use the old pits for support races, I don't think that would have been an issue this time round with the support being 10 Porsche cup cars and nothing else.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

That is not the problem. The problem os the structure of the current AM class, wich is only there to give better second hand value to the PRO cars. The class was instigated to increase longivity to the GTE cars, because the cars are few and far between. I get that they (ACO) didn't want GTE to go the same way GT1 did, but seriously, they could've done something else. Like they are trying to fo now.

And this is a problem?

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The big problem I see with GTE nowadays is that it's almost completely an ACO-only formula. (plus a handfull of Ferraris in Int'l. GT-Open). What that means is that the WEC and ELMS are no longer connected to the rest of the European racing scence. 6 or 7 years ago, many FIA GT or national GT teams would join the LMS for their home races and shore up the grids (many of them eventually joining the LMS full time a year or two later). With GT2 dying out on the national scene, that possibility has pretty much vanished.

The ELMS has remedied this to a degree by including the GT3-cars, they'll have a pretty nice field for their Imola round, and precisely due to one-offs from the GT3-ranks.

This. Would we rather have the "exclusivity" of only a handful of GTE cars in the WEC or a grid that could fill up the pit spots 3 times over that wasn't as "exclusive". For example --- the Porsche 991 GT3 R is only in GTE. The rest of the Porsche's are 911 GT3 RSRs. Same with Ferrari... the GTE version is in very limited supply compared to the GT3 version. Perhaps GTE for Pro and GT3 for Am?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Perhaps GTE, then GT3 for Am!

FIFY







L.P.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It's a world championship for crying out loud! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

I'd love an all-pro grid too, but it's hard to put 90 pro drivers in a single race.

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

it should still be one class where all GTE cars can race against each other, and where an Am car that has a really good day can get on the GTE podium and not just the GTE-Am one.

I agree, I'd like an amateur to get into the overall GTE podium if they beat the pros.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by Salamus

And this is a problem?

Yes it is. the AM class is not made to please the AM drivers, but to please the works teams. I suspect that many of the AM's would prefer to race new cars.

Do it like this instead: PRO (platinum, gold drivers), PRO/AM (one platinum/gold driver), AM (no platinum/gold drivers), and let them race what they can afford, in a single class.

[Maelochs]

As a stop-gap solution it wasn't a bad one. Using old cars means that all the teams don't have to pay a lot more (as they would of the factories would have to build a lot more cars) which gets more cars on the grid. It also gives pro-am teams a chance at a podium which improves sponsorship possibilities possibly.

I think we would all prefer a formula which was affordable, profitable, and not segregated by finance: a more normal GTO/GTU or something, where teams could compete for class honors whether or not the drivers were full-time.

However, look how long it is taking to devise the next GT formula, somehow involving GT3 and GTE , pro and am, BoP and built to rules ... FIA/ACO needed a solution immediately---they couldn't wait for two years while factories and organizers bicker.

Understanding a decision doesn't make it more correct, but somehow less objectionable. Hopefully ACO/FIA can come up with a stable, sensible rule set, but on the other hand, how could they know that GT3 would explode and factories would prefer it, and that GTE would wither?

Hopefully by 2106 ACOP/FIA will have everything balanced out in both GT and prototypes.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Salamus

How does the WEC lose diversity and credibility? There is not one series in the world that is all-pro. Racing relies on investors, so why not give them a class for their own?

Theoretically, the secondary GT-class could have cars built to a different ruleset or of a different displacement class, which would of course create more diversity.

As far as credibility is concerned: IMHO there is simply no place for that "participation-ribbon/everybodygetsatrophy" kind of mentality in top level racing"...

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I'd love an all-pro grid too, but it's hard to put 90 pro drivers in a single race.

I am not against Ams... not at all. If they have the guts to go toe to toe with the pros, more power to them! (If they don't, there's always club racing.)

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think we would all prefer a formula which was affordable, profitable, and not segregated by finance: a more normal GTO/GTU or something, where teams could compete for class honors whether or not the drivers were full-time.

However, look how long it is taking to devise the next GT formula, somehow involving GT3 and GTE , pro and am, BoP and built to rules ... FIA/ACO needed a solution immediately---they couldn't wait for two years while factories and organizers bicker.

I like GTE way better than GTO/GTU. They're supposed to be GT cars, they should be real cars.

The GTE-Am class really doesn't bother me, because there is going to be Am drivers anyway, they may as well have their own class.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

I like GTE way better than GTO/GTU. They're supposed to be GT cars, they should be real cars.

If you have Z4s, you might just as well have Audi TTs, Caymans, GT86s or Elises.... those are at least as "real" as the Z4.

And getting the Z4 out of GTE where it - going by the performance of the roadcar - has no right to be, wouldn't be a bad thing either.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

There is not one series in the world that is all-pro. Racing relies on investors, so why not give them a class for their own?

All FIA GT1's intended to be, and the AM's had as oportunities as the pro's.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

As far as credibility is concerned: IMHO there is simply no place for that "participation-ribbon/everybodygetsatrophy" kind of mentality in top level racing"...

I am not against Ams... not at all. If they have the guts to go toe to toe with the pros, more power to them! (If they don't, there's always club racing.)

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I'd love an all-pro grid too, but it's hard to put 90 pro drivers in a single race.

Nope, JRM for example is looking for a top PRO champ to demonstrate the GT-R is competitive (Even they enter an AM car, they would anyway like demonstrated on GT1), the same with Reiter engineering, they are semi-factory efforts they want a pro GT champ so in a hypotetical ideal WEC you would have LMP1 pros + some LMP2 pros + GT pros (no 90 but more than 25/35 PROS. ).



Came on, WEC, it's an international champ, should not be for babies.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

Yes it is. the AM class is not made to please the AM drivers, but to please the works teams. I suspect that many of the AM's would prefer to race new cars.

Do it like this instead: PRO (platinum, gold drivers), PRO/AM (one platinum/gold driver), AM (no platinum/gold drivers), and let them race what they can afford, in a single class.

The Am class has to wait one year to race new cars, it is not that big of a problem. The fact that the longevity of these cars is increased because of the amateurs is an advantage.

Pro, Pro/Am, Am might work for BES and GT3 championships where there are at least 30 cars but the GT field in the WEC and Le Mans is too small for three separate divisions.

IMO there is no difference between having two separate classes (Pro and Am) and having one class with two trophies. It is the exact same thing!

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Theoretically, the secondary GT-class could have cars built to a different ruleset or of a different displacement class, which would of course create more diversity.

As far as credibility is concerned: IMHO there is simply no place for that "participation-ribbon/everybodygetsatrophy" kind of mentality in top level racing"...

The two classes are separated by driver professionalism, not cars.

I don't see a "everybodygetsatrophy" mentality. The WEC is attracting amateurs/investors by giving them a chance to compete for a class win.

Tell me, what would you rather have at Le Mans. Some cars with all-pro lineups and some cars with amateurs. Or, the days of GT2 where two pros race with one amateur and their chances of winning are reduced.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Tell me, what would you rather have at Le Mans. Some cars with all-pro lineups and some cars with amateurs. Or, the days of GT2 where two pros race with one amateur and their chances of winning are reduced.

That still happens... point in case: Paul Dalla-Lana in one of the suppossedly Pro-Astons. And if it weren't it would be a shame as it would deny us giant killing (or at least podium) performances by the small teams that can. And it also reduces depth in class to a worrying level in WEC... 6 cars for GTE-pro are not a whole lot, lose one or two cars early in a race and it soon all becomes pretty flimsy.

ELMS had to abolish GTE-Pro because it would have ended up with two pathetically weak GT-classes rather than one strong one.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Came on, WEC, it's an international champ, should not be for babies.

What babies? You should be thanking these people for basically wasting their money on an expensive hobby.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That still happens... point in case: Paul Dalla-Lana in one of the suppossedly Pro-Astons. And if it weren't it would be a shame as it would deny us giant killing (or at least podium) performances by the small teams that can. And it also reduces depth in class to a worrying level in WEC... 6 cars for GTE-pro are not a whole lot, lose one or two cars early in a race and it soon all becomes pretty flimsy.

ELMS had to abolish GTE-Pro because it would have ended up with two pathetically weak GT-classes rather than one strong one.

Dalla Lana still has the right to drive in the Pro class if he wants. And he might not be the fastest driver but he certainly isn't the slowest.

I'm saying in general, almost all amateurs are now in the Am class allowing for full pro lineups in the Pro class.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Understanding a decision doesn't make it more correct, but somehow less objectionable. Hopefully ACO/FIA can come up with a stable, sensible rule set, but on the other hand, how could they know that GT3 would explode and factories would prefer it, and that GTE would wither?

I don't know about this. I remember the discussions going about when GTE was announced. Our predictions as fans were not very positive. We did not like the demise of GT1 - allthough we understood it - or some of the rules of GTE, particularily the displacement cap. We also predicted that costs would soar and that GTE eventually would go the same way as GT1. On the other hand, most of us wasn't overly happy about the BOP in GT3 either, and saw a bleak future for that.
Clearly, that is some time away still, seeing how strong both GTE and GT3 currently is, but I do fear that 2013 is its peak. The downside of rule changes is always a loss of participants.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Dalla Lana still has the right to drive in the Pro class if he wants. And he might not be the fastest driver but he certainly isn't the slowest.

I'm saying in general, almost all amateurs are now in the Am class allowing for full pro lineups in the Pro class.

How are they "allowing" for that exactly? There used to be all-pro-cars in the past, and not just a few of them. And whatever the teams that even run Pro and Am make from running the Am-cars is certainly not enough to fund the all-Pro cars. So I really fail to see a connection between the creation of the Am-class and the existance of all-Pro lineups.