Merger talks again?

[Michael Edick]

Originally Posted by MickAU

Please no! Give us the Lola any day - they look like a racecar!

If Honda are making noises about exiting Indycar - let them go. This makes a merger so much easier with KK et al owning Cosworth.

Nevertheless, there is another scenario - involving Honda - of course:

-Cosworth have produced a reasonably tidy V8 Formula One engine - which could do with some capital investment
- It looks as though Williams F1 will sign to go with Toyota next year, leaving Cosworth with a heap of F1 V8 'boat anchors'
- Honda isn't performing all that spectacularly in F1
- Honda essentially have two teams in F1 (as well as owning a composite facility in England - 'officially' owned by Super Aguri)

Could a sell off of Cosworth by KK to Honda be a viable option?

Cosworth, badged as Honda, could then be the control engine supplier to the Indycar/CCWS Series....

Quite logical when you think about it!

I agree about the Lola chassis...the IRL cars are UGLY as sin! and the rebadging bit...very good idea, although two manufacturers always make the show more interesting!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Every thing depends on Honda, the cost of F-1 plus IRL must be staggering. It may make the purchase of Cosworth look like an inspired move.

The last one standing will, in effect, become a merged series and there will be no argument about who is running the show.


We will be able to close this thread by 2008.

There really is no cost to Honda for running the IRL program. They are leasing the engines out, at about cost, and no longer will provide funding for entrants.

On the other hand, they will be funding the Acura/Honda American Le Mans Series efforts, and the three teams that will accompany them to that series.

This may be a larger short-term issue than many have considered. The suggestion is that these three teams, and two other Open Wheel teams are looking at moving into Sportscars next year. That doesn't preclude them from running in Open Wheel, but I wouldn't rule it out either.

The potential is for IRL to lose nine cars, but it is more likely that they'll lose between three and five. Champcars has the potential to lose four. I'm not sure how to rate this, though it is possible all four will go. On the upside, Champcars seems to have a greater ability to replace lost teams through Atlantics, but it might end up coming from KK's pocket to do so.

As far as cars and schedules... it appeared as though 07' discussions hinged upon the Dallara and a modified DP01 chassis, and NA engines. It seems obvious now that they are talking about 08', so we'll see if any of that changes. (if a deal gets done). As far as venues, it sounded like 3-4 Street/Road Circuits from CCWS, and that's about it.

Originally Posted by MickAU

If Honda are making noises about exiting Indycar - let them go. This makes a merger so much easier with KK et al owning Cosworth.

Nevertheless, there is another scenario - involving Honda - of course:...........

Could a sell off of Cosworth by KK to Honda be a viable option?

Cosworth, badged as Honda, could then be the control engine supplier to the Indycar/CCWS Series....

Quite logical when you think about it!

Not logical at all. Robert Clarke of Honda is on record as stating they only want to participate where they have competition. Your scenario of Honda badged series alone is not going to happen.

Second, Honda is not leaving IRL, though their funding is. I believe they agreed to provide engines through to 2009.

Honda buying Cosworth doesn't make sense either. HRD has a record of producing excellent engines, so why purchase an asset that is a duplicate of what they already own? If Honda wanted to badge "Cossies" (which they don't), they could just pay for the naming rights, no need to buy the company.

Honda is actually pushing very hard for a merger, and if it appears there won't be one next year, look for them to push their teams in other directions.

“In our opinion, neither series is healthy. If you were to take away the subsidies from both series they would likely disappear. Unless the two series get together it’s hard to see how the future will be anything but a steady downward path.”
-- Robert Clarke, Honda

[MickAU]

Just a theory that I came up with not knowing the current political situation based around the series and their supply deals (we don't get a great deal of detailed information here in Oz).

Fish-Flake - I wasn't suggesting that Indycar use Cosworth F1 engines, thought I was clear that they'd use Cosworth Champcar engines badged as Hondas - using F1 engines would go against the ideals of the series, particularly from a cost cutting measure - and I doubt they could produce enough F1 engines to run effectively.

And I had forgotten about the new CCWS design...but still agree, they cannot use the Indycar chassis, they are horrible looking cars.

Got you talking though! Let's just hope it happens sooner rather than later

[mountainstar]

Honda's deal is simple. They spent a fortune on payoffs to teams and drivers and on developing an engine. I think their perspective now is that they've made this investment, so they'll sell engines to teams as long as they want and that'll be that. I wouldn't look to Honda to do anything more for the irl.

I think Champcar is taking the right course by continuing to move along with the DP01 and new races, instead of waiting for all these other people to make up their minds. If Honda or drivers or teams want to join the Champcar party they can do it but on Champcars terms.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

As far as venues, it sounded like 3-4 Street/Road Circuits from CCWS, and that's about it.

No wonder this merger is taking time. That scenario makes very little sense.

[climb]

If Honda just want to get their return on the investments made, without any more efforts, the onlyway to do it is to work with Indy chassis.

Adaptations to champ cars would not come FOC.

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by climb

If Honda just want to get their return on the investments made, without any more efforts, the onlyway to do it is to work with Indy chassis.

Adaptations to champ cars would not come FOC.

Wrong. I seem to remember that Honda had THE engine to have in Champ Car until a few years ago, when they bolted to the IRL. Since Cosworth instituted a technology freeze once Honda and Toyota left, they can most likely break out the turbo engines they still have mothballed somewhere and be on the pace in no time.

As for their Indy Racing League engines, both Honda and Toyota are using them in Formula Nippon in Japan, as both are basically Formula 3000-spec power plants. They will continue to be useful for some years to come back home.

[mountainstar]

And that's exactly the deal. Honda has spent a wad on developing an engine, therefore it may as well sell it for as long as it can. And if they get some kind of publicity out of it then fine.

It's quite clear that the ALMS is the new focus and where the competition that Honda wants is going to be.

[Fish_Flake]

And with the dubious history the IRL has with engine formulas (four in a decade), no wonder manufacturers aren't crowding at its door. Not that Le Mans is the right way to go, either; the Audi R8 excluded, pretty much every works Le Mans effort is to throw a lot of money at it and give up after three years, whether you've won the 24 Hours or not. On the other hand, developing engines for two or three cars for three years is probably much less expensive then developing engines for twenty cars for three years.

I remain adamant on my pro-turbo position because it makes more sense. It's part of the open-wheel tradition here: they were running turbos at Indy a full decade before Formula 1 added them, and they were running turbos nearly a full decade further (two decades if you count Champ Car). Any merger talk will need a stop-gap engine solution, but it will certainly be a short-term one, and any unified series would require a brand new engine formula unique from either side. I maintain the stance that turbo engines are, first of all, a trademark for Indy Cars, being a primary contrast to NASCAR in the States and Formula 1 worldwide. Second of all, it allows the series to control the boost and therefore control the speeds, unlike the NA engines the IRL uses that have to be scrapped once someone sets a 230 pole speed. Third of all, they sound really cool compared to the normally aspirated engines.

[indycool]

Whoa, Fish Flake, a few things:

1. Actually, the IRL had EXISTING engines in '96, new formula for Aurora and Infiniti in '97, continuing that formula until decreasing the liters (which was not a major change).
2. In a merger, Honda has an engine deal with IRL through 2009. IMO, Ford would likely badge a Cosworth and join the merged series, rather than both going through the complications and millions required to change.
3. The turbos, as it's been required to slow the cars down, are providing so little boost since it's been turned down and down and down to regulate speed anyway that you might as well not have 'em on there at all.
4. The NA engines don't hafta be "scrapped" when someone reaches a 230 pole speed.

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by indycool

Whoa, Fish Flake, a few things:

1. Actually, the IRL had EXISTING engines in '96, new formula for Aurora and Infiniti in '97, continuing that formula until decreasing the liters (which was not a major change).
2. In a merger, Honda has an engine deal with IRL through 2009. IMO, Ford would likely badge a Cosworth and join the merged series, rather than both going through the complications and millions required to change.
3. The turbos, as it's been required to slow the cars down, are providing so little boost since it's been turned down and down and down to regulate speed anyway that you might as well not have 'em on there at all.
4. The NA engines don't hafta be "scrapped" when someone reaches a 230 pole speed.

I'm not talking about the current turbo engines, i.e. the 2.65L V8s. That's been the standard for Indy/Champ Car racing since the early 1970s, and after 30+ years of evolutions from the original Cosworth DFX, I'll agree that the current formula is nearing the end of its lifespan. It's remarkable that the engine has lasted as long as it has, considering how much racing has changed since then, but it is growing long in the tooth. In 1976, the year Al Unser introduced the Cosworth to Indy, the pole speed was 188 MPH, and twenty years later, Arie Luyendyk qualified with a speed nearly 50 MPH faster. Without the advent of the IRL, who knows where the speeds would be today?

Neither am I saying that a radically new formula needs to be implemented immediately. In the case of a merger, one engine or the other will have to be adopted. I doubt that either of the current suppliers would have problem accomodating the switch either way: Honda surely still has a stockpile of 2002 CART engines, and Cosworth must have a 3-liter V8 design lying around somewhere (remember the "Chevworth"?). The arrangement will work for a few years, but once the new series will have settled down, a change will be in store. I'm merely saying that when that point is reached, that is the direction the series should take, developing an engine that will set Indy Car racing in a league of its own in the world of motorsports.

I'm sure that people on both sides of the fence will agree that Indy Car should not be just another racing series, and V8-powered formulas are a dime a dozen these days. Let's get an engine that is different enough that it stands out by itself among its peers, yet practical enough to be cost-effective and encouraging to manufacturer support. Let's get an engine that will allow for a developmental timeline of ten years or so before actions must be made to slow the cars down. For a goal, let's say that the aim should be for the pole position for the 2010 Indy 500 to be in the 215 MPH range, and see what happens from there.

[JohnSSC]

Well then based on that rationale, I am sure there are some Offenhauser engines still lying about and they would certainly be easy to manufacture! They sound great too plus they are technologically quite similar to something one would build today.

Perhaps a Novi or two lurk in some garage in Indiana if it is V-8s that you want...

[Dutton]

1800bhp, 3L, V12, turbo (well something like that, ).

You know you want it.

*slaps himself*

Seriously, though, I think whatever is most viable as a long-term, low-cost engine should be the choice. I think, though, flake's idea that the formula should be, in some way, distinctive is a good point. It helps provide a selling point.

I wouldn't pretend to know enough to speculate as to what that engine should be.

[climb]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

Wrong. I seem to remember that Honda had THE engine to have in Champ Car until a few years ago, when they bolted to the IRL. Since Cosworth instituted a technology freeze once Honda and Toyota left, they can most likely break out the turbo engines they still have mothballed somewhere and be on the pace in no time.

As for their Indy Racing League engines, both Honda and Toyota are using them in Formula Nippon in Japan, as both are basically Formula 3000-spec power plants. They will continue to be useful for some years to come back home.

You seem to forget that in 2007 C-C are supposed to have a brand new chassis.
The honda engoines would undoubtedly fit to the old Lolas, but what about the new car?
Does anyone have a clue what the size of the powertrain will be?

[Fish_Flake]

If the new chassis is being built around the existing engines, I don't see where the problem is. Of course, I don't know if the Cossies are in the cards for next year, but I have not heard of any news indicating otherwise.

[mountainstar]

Yes they are and I think they are looking for a slight bump in hp for the engine for next year.

[indycool]

Gentilozzi and Johnson seem to think no merger for '07....

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...490.xml&coll=7

KK, too.....

http://www.autonet.ca/Motorsports/St...638720-ap.html

[mountainstar]

No surprise at all.

[racinthestreets]

I had the opportunity to be in the pits all weekend. What a great experience. The "rumor" around the pit lane and was communicated to me by a person on a team that said "you did not hear this from my lips" and although I can vouch that the source is on a team, I cannot vouch for the "lips that told him" - the rumor is, that CCWS will clear their schedule for May 2007. I think this is a "good faith" showing by KK and CCWS to TG that the fued is over and we can keep talking through and find a solution. It is very clear that 2007 is not a realistic target for reunification, but by clearing May TG is going to get a full field and there will be a "bump" day again IMO. Bobby Rahal had his Rahal Letterman coach and hospitality tent in the paddock with the other teams. He was not in the Atlantic paddock, but in the CCWS paddock. He had a GEHL banner on the front of his motor coach, GEHL sponsors Graham. KK, he is everywhere. He roams the paddock freely talking with fans and teams. It was a great weekend, and a first for me. Although I have been to over 40 races over the years, this is the first time that I was part of a team and spent all three days from morning to late in the evening at the track. Looking forward to San Jose.

[Knowlesy]

Ah, good vibes.

[Tim Northcutt]

If this is the case, where will Champ Car put Houston and Monterrey???

[enemy-ace]

I think Monterrey is gone next year.

[Knowlesy]

Yeah, that is what I keep hearing...

[racinthestreets]

Good questions Tim. I believe the series needs more races beofre April 30 than just Long Beach. Houston has fair weather so it is possible that it could be two weeks after Long Beach. Or possibly the next weekend, it is a two day communte from Long Beach. There are good vibes all around. It was hard at Portland to ascertain those vibes from the negative vibes - simply because the local fan base is worried about a merger causing the loss of Portland as a venue. It appears that Portland will survive and see a race in 2007, after that is questionable. I believe that if CCWS and whatever a merges series is called, looks back to before the split, they will see that Portland did draw and did provide an excellent race.

[indycool]

Excellent race, but a merger will be based on dollars and which venues bring in the most, not good racing.