Group A BMW 635 CSi - a popular, solid performer

[blinkybm]

.

[blinkybm]

Great stuff folks. One comment re 046 - it was/is RHD whereas the Williams/Sytner 84TT car was LHD. There doesn't seem to be a listing for a third Sytner car at the 84TT:
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...lverstone.html
And John Clark and David Sutherland both confirmed that the car they drove was LHD and was equipped with Alpina parts and engine as Frank had the Alpina agency at the time.

[Gerard Hodges]

Originally Posted by KA

Hi Ian- I think the chassis numbers and the BMW France reference came earlier in the thread from the recent/current NZ owners of the cars- this is one of the posts, I'd have to search further back to find the other
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...05#post1838505

Hi Ian & KA, The reference to BMW France for Chassis # RA1-22 comes from a list of Chassis numbers that was sent to me by BMW Motorsport AG. (The same list also appears in BMW 6 Series by Jeremy Walton.) This is their official list. In the list it states RA1-22 BMW France, National Series. I have already spoken to John Morton - I know him well - & he has told me all he knows. He didn't actually import or own the cars, they were owned by Johnston BMW who were a large dealer here in Auckland. I have also spoken with Graeme Johnston & he tells me he dealt with Frank Sytner & Ted Grace & can't recall much about the history of the cars.
Rgs,
Gerry

[ian beckett]

Does anyone have that particular book which would allow the chassis listing to be posted? Ian.

[Gerard Hodges]

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Does anyone have that particular book which would allow the chassis listing to be posted? Ian.

Yes Ian i will have my list scanned and post it in the next day or so.

[Adrian B]

I have a partial list in front of me ( no scanner I'm afraid), and RA1-22 is assigned to BMW France. Another car which we might be able to fill in the history on is RA1-02. The car was delivered to BMW Australia (JPS), and I believe was converted from Gp A to CpC ( with twin cam M88 engine) and driven by Richards in 1983/4, teaming up with Gardner for Bathurst in 84 (dnf/sabotage???). At the end of 84, car was converted back to GpA, and used by Creighton for the first round of the 85 ATCC. Was sold to Jim Keogh ( 85 Bathurst/6th w/Garry Rogers, 86 Sandown 25th w/ Des Wall). I think this is the car now owned by Jim Boult in NZ, maybe Gerard could contact him to confirm this.

[Adrian B]

A correction to the above post, re RA1-02, Richards and Gardner drove together at Bathurst 83, where they had mysterious fuel issues, DNF. 84 Richards and Longhurst, DNF. Jim Keogh and Des Wall 1986 Bathurst, DNF.

[Gerard Hodges]

Hi Guys, this is the list that I have. It only goes to #49 but I am endeavouring to obtain the rest of the numbers through my contacts at BMW Motorsport. Hope this clarifies some of the questions.
Adrian, I'll contact Jim Boult, but I think you are right as far as chassis #2 goes.Rgs, Gerry

Racing Chassis Numbers & Clients

Big Production years were 1983 (RA1 prefix in all but two cases) & 1984 (RA2 prefix).
ETCC – European Touring Car Championship
BTCC – British Touring Car Championship
DTM – Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft

BMW Motorsport racing bodies & hardware 1983-88

Chassis #; Client; Country; Programme/drivers

E24 AAA-01*;Works Proto/Cheylesmore BMW;D/UK;BTCC/Hans Stuck

E24 RA2-01;Eggenberger;CH;ETCC/Kelleners/Grano

E24 RA1-02**;BMW Australia,F. Gardner;Aus;National Title/Richards

E24 RA1-03;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-04;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-05;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-06;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-07;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC/Stuck-Queste

E24 RA1-08;Eggenberger;CH;ETCC/Briozzo

E24 RA1-09;Eggenberger;CH;ETCC/Stalder

* AAA-01 was crashed heavily but was reborn in a new body
** RA1 was re-used as a test & special development car & had a later life in the hands of CC Racing for BMW GB in National Series

E24 RA1-10;Juma/Belgian National;B;ETCC/Heyer-Hahne

E24 RA1-11 ;Juma/Belgian National ;B;ETCC/Xhenceval- Bourgoigne

E24 RA1-12;Konig;D;DTM

E24 RA1-13;Leopold von Bayern;D;DTM/Stuck-Brun

E24 RA1-14;V.B. Racing;CS ;TECC/Strycek

E24 RA1-15;Delcour;B;ETCC/Spa 24 hr

E24 RA1-16;BMW AG;D;Show Car/retained

E24 RA1-17;Gartlan/Grace;UK;National/Sytner

E24 RA1-18;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-19 ;BMW France;F ;National

E24 RA1-20 ;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-21;Hartge Tuning (D);D;ETCC/DTM

E24 RA1-22;BMW France;F;National

E24 RA1-23;Hartge Tuning (D);B/F;ETCC/DTM/Nationals

E24 RA1-24

E24 RA1-25;Faltz of Essen;D;DTM

E24 RA2-26;BMW Belgium;B;Unknown

E24 RA2-27;ETCC

E24 RA2-28;ASP Racing;CH;Concept Car Project

E24 RA2-29;Cheylesmore BMW;GB;BTCC

E24 RA2-30;Circuiti/Opptyhaus

E24 RA2-31;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC/DTM

E24 RA2-32

E24 RA2-33;Polak Racing;US

E24 RA2-34;;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC Original Teile livery

E24 RA2-35;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC Original Teile livery

E24 RA2-36;Eggenberger Racing;CH;ETCC

E24 RA2-37;BMW GB/CC Racing;GB;BTCC/Weaver

E24 RA2-38;Eggenberger Racing;CH;ETCC

E24 RA2-39;BMW GB/CC Racing;GB;BTCC/Woodman

E24 RA2-40 ;Eggenberger Racing;CH;ETCC

E24 RA2-41;Eggenberger Racing ;CH;ETCC

E24 RA2-42;Hartge Tuning;D;ETCC

E24 RA2-43;Hartge Tuning;D;ETCC

E24 RA2-44;BMW Australia/ Gardner;Aus;National Title Winner/ Richards


E24 RA2-45;Obermaier;D;DTM

E24 RA2-46;Gartlan Racing/Grace;GB;Grp N, not A. Crashed by
B. Williams, rebuilt & sold to NZ (G. Hodges)

E24 RA2-47;Juma Racing;B;ETCC

E24 RA2-48;Juma Racing;B;ETCC

E24 RA2-49 ;D;DTM

[KA]

Interesting how many cars are listed as 'BMW France'- think I counted 8, which is a lot of cars if they didn't run any kind of race programme (it's still a lot if they did....)

Just a wild guess, but does that suggest that for some reason French customers like Bavaria Automobiles or Garage du Bac could have ordered their cars via BMW France, rather than directly from Motorsport......?

[ian beckett]

I am really pleased to see this list and will spend some time correlating to entries in my notes.Regarding the French entries which seem to have caused a little surprise and contention,here are my initial thoughts.I actually think the whole list is an early version of where these cars went to perhaps based on initial orders and that later,chassis were resold as team plans changed or teams saw the chance to make a quick profit by selling them on.France had its saloon championship based around Superproduction which was a more free interpretation of Group A and allowed bigger wheels,slightly more developed aerodynamics and engine and brake modifications which gave up to 100 more horsepower and even the fitting of M1 brakes.The 635 was allowed into the championship for the first time in '83 and 4 cars raced which could neatly correspond to RA's03/4/5/6? Team 1)Garage du Bac,Motul backed for Jean'Pierre Malcher;2)Two car team JMS, for owner Jean Marc Smadja(Iso Roulements as sponsor)and Claude Ballot=Lena(Marlboro backed);3)Team Bodard for Anny-Charlotte Verney(GSI Computers backed). I am only suggesting these were the first four RA numbers allocated to BMW France but they were racing in March of '83 so it makes sense. In '84,5 cars raced so a newcomer is now on the scene! 1)Garage du Bac ran their car in only 1 race for Fabien Giroix,likely to be last years car.They did now also have an Eggenberger built Gp A car which was their main priority;2)JMS ran a single car for Ballot-Lena as Smadja raced a Peugeot;3)Mirabeau Concessionaires raced a car prepared by Bodard Tuning for Gerard Bleynie(presumably the ex-Verney car?);4)SJA Course ran two cars for Jean-Pierre Castel (the new car?) and Roland Guillemet (possibly in the Smadja '83?)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ian beckett

I am really pleased to see this list and will spend some time correlating to entries in my notes.I actually think the whole list is an early version of where these cars went to perhaps based on initial orders and that later,chassis were resold as team plans changed or teams saw the chance to make a quick profit by selling them on.

Indeed glad to have something we can work off/match up with what we've found.

Re the changes/orders scenario a key one to get to the bottom of will be that red BMW GB ordered car from early 1985.

I'd love to know who it was supposed to be for, why it didn't run as presumably intended in the BTCC and what happened to it etc...

[KA]

Originally Posted by ian beckett

I am really pleased to see this list and will spend some time correlating to entries in my notes.Regarding the French entries which seem to have caused a little surprise and contention,here are my initial thoughts.I actually think the whole list is an early version of where these cars went to perhaps based on initial orders and that later,chassis were resold as team plans changed or teams saw the chance to make a quick profit by selling them on.France had its saloon championship based around Superproduction which was a more free interpretation of Group A and allowed bigger wheels,slightly more developed aerodynamics and engine and brake modifications which gave up to 100 more horsepower and even the fitting of M1 brakes.The 635 was allowed into the championship for the first time in '83 and 4 cars raced which could neatly correspond to RA's03/4/5/6? Team 1)Garage du Bac,Motul backed for Jean'Pierre Malcher;2)Two car team JMS, for owner Jean Marc Smadja(Iso Roulements as sponsor)and Claude Ballot=Lena(Marlboro backed);3)Team Bodard for Anny-Charlotte Verney(GSI Computers backed). I am only suggesting these were the first four RA numbers allocated to BMW France but they were racing in March of '83 so it makes sense. In '84,5 cars raced so a newcomer is now on the scene! 1)Garage du Bac ran their car in only 1 race for Fabien Giroix,likely to be last years car.They did now also have an Eggenberger built Gp A car which was their main priority;2)JMS ran a single car for Ballot-Lena as Smadja raced a Peugeot;3)Mirabeau Concessionaires raced a car prepared by Bodard Tuning for Gerard Bleynie(presumably the ex-Verney car?);4)SJA Course ran two cars for Jean-Pierre Castel (the new car?) and Roland Guillemet (possibly in the Smadja '83?)

Great stuff Ian- if you can match up your information with this list, then we'll have a more accurate base than the list I'd cobbled together from scratch just using the info posted in this thread so far- we can then add the thread info, susbsequent changes of ownership, etc onto that.

You mentioned the Anny-Charlotte Verney Team Bodard/GSI car- I've seen a pic of that somewehre on the web in the last couple of weeks- I'll see if I can track it down again....

[ian beckett]

For '85 the 635 was starting to lose a little of its competitive edge in France although more cars raced some were raced by less talented drivers and ran in a lower class within the Superproduction races known as the Criterium. Teams were 1)Pelras for Xavier Lapeyre;2)Bodard for Gerard Bleynie;3)Bodard for Phillipe Gurdjian;4)Mirabeau for Claude Ballot-Lena;5)JMS for Jean Marc Smadja;6)SJA for Jean-Pierre Castel;7)Roland Guillemet;8)Elkron sponsored car for Gilles Sagne/Noel Dupas;By '86 the cars were even lower down the field and usually did not warrant a mention in magazines of the day so they became even more difficult to follow.At the same time that the 635 was starting in Superproduction,Dominque Fornage was racing a Gp A car in ETCC as was Jean Louis Bos.The Fornage car was entered and (prepared?)by Hartge at some races and by Garage du Laon(a French BMW dealer) at others.Fornage became I think a founder member of the Bavaria Automobiles team for '84 and onwards until'87. It is relatively easy therefore to see how BMW France would need so many cars. BMW in France had always been active in racing using the 320/323/520/528/530 and the 635 continued the tradition.I am still at a loss as to where the Sytner/Bmw France link has come from!! I know the picture you are thinking of,wasn't it on a French or Belgian forum with a thread about Superproduction racing? Ian.

[ian beckett]

Go to www.forum-auto.com then Sport Auto then Photos then scroll down to Superproduction annee 70-80 (page two) scroll down until you find it.Ian.

[ian beckett]

To answer your query KA I think that is exactly what would have happened in that individual French teams would have ordered the Motorsport 'kit' of parts via BMW france in the same way that today you would order a road car from a dealer which would pass through the BMW GB network.I also suspect that unwanted cars would transfer from one country to another as teams plans altered so if say BMW France had an unused car and one was destroyed in another country's championship then a deal would be struck.Do not forget that BMW Motorsport was a profit making arm of the BMW parent company and they were very successful! Ian.

[KA]

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Go to www.forum-auto.com then Sport Auto then Photos then scroll down to Superproduction annee 70-80 (page two) scroll down until you find it.Ian.

That's the one- thanks! I found it when looking for something else (Rovers...) but couldn't remember where

[vap]

what's a Rover

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by vap

what's a Rover

Assuming you're raising a genuine question vap, please see the following thread: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81326

There's plenty of examples in there!

[vap]

sorry guy's was just joking about the rover bit, I'm abit of a bmw fan

[Gerard Hodges]

Originally Posted by ian beckett

I am really pleased to see this list and will spend some time correlating to entries in my notes.Regarding the French entries which seem to have caused a little surprise and contention,here are my initial thoughts.I actually think the whole list is an early version of where these cars went to perhaps based on initial orders and that later,chassis were resold as team plans changed or teams saw the chance to make a quick profit by selling them on.France had its saloon championship based around Superproduction which was a more free interpretation of Group A and allowed bigger wheels,slightly more developed aerodynamics and engine and brake modifications which gave up to 100 more horsepower and even the fitting of M1 brakes.The 635 was allowed into the championship for the first time in '83 and 4 cars raced which could neatly correspond to RA's03/4/5/6? Team 1)Garage du Bac,Motul backed for Jean'Pierre Malcher;2)Two car team JMS, for owner Jean Marc Smadja(Iso Roulements as sponsor)and Claude Ballot=Lena(Marlboro backed);3)Team Bodard for Anny-Charlotte Verney(GSI Computers backed). I am only suggesting these were the first four RA numbers allocated to BMW France but they were racing in March of '83 so it makes sense. In '84,5 cars raced so a newcomer is now on the scene! 1)Garage du Bac ran their car in only 1 race for Fabien Giroix,likely to be last years car.They did now also have an Eggenberger built Gp A car which was their main priority;2)JMS ran a single car for Ballot-Lena as Smadja raced a Peugeot;3)Mirabeau Concessionaires raced a car prepared by Bodard Tuning for Gerard Bleynie(presumably the ex-Verney car?);4)SJA Course ran two cars for Jean-Pierre Castel (the new car?) and Roland Guillemet (possibly in the Smadja '83?)

Hi Ian and KA, i hope my list goes some way to help piece together the jigsaw.as i said i have some very good freinds at BMW Motorsport / schnitzer /BMW Mobile Tradition, who i hope will find the rest of the chassis no list. please note i had to type the list out because i could not get it to scan in ( poor computer skills?) The double ** beside RA1-02, should be beside RA2-01, i also added the current info on my car. one more thing AAA-01 was reborn as RA2-29. keep up the good work.
Gerry.

[KA]

Way back at the beginning of the thread, Ian mentioned that the 635 even appeared in rallycross. Just been looking around a French rallycross website (Jesper posted a pic from this in the European Holden Commodores thread) and found:

http://www.fanderallycross.com/1987N...mg1987002.html

There's another example further into the same album

Any idea if these were ex-circuit racers, or whether they were built specifically as rallycross cars- and if so, were they based on RA-numbered BMW Motorsport shells etc, or production shells...?

[Gungebucket]

Slightly off the subject (blame the wine) but one of my favourite cars that I owned was a BMW 3.0 SI. No mods apart from those necessary to accommodate the factory "300°" camshaft and a basic tweak on the fuelling (telling the ECU that the air temperature was lower than it was).... It was great fun!

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by Gungebucket

Slightly off the subject (blame the wine) but one of my favourite cars that I owned was a BMW 3.0 SI. No mods apart from those necessary to accommodate the factory "300°" camshaft and a basic tweak on the fuelling (telling the ECU that the air temperature was lower than it was).... It was great fun!

You should see the 3.0SI that Dad raced, firstly in Gp1 and then sharing with Tony Lanfranchi and Squeaker!! It's currently for sale in America, but that's another story!!

[vap]

Hi Guys does anyone have a picture of what the chassis plate should look like on a group A 635 csi and has anyone had one on a rolling dyno ?

[FLORENT MOULIN]

Dear 635 fans,


It's a real pleasure for me to contribute to this impressive records compilation about 635s Motorsport-chassis and race results.

Here is the history about my car as I was able to retrace it from my file and the conversations I had with Serge Power, Fornage, De Deyne, etc …

E24-RA2-51 was ordered on 23-1-84 & delivered on 31-1-84, white bare shell.
It was sold to a customer who was located in Germany, but he had done nothing with the shell when Serge Power bought it via Schnitzer on behalf of his customer Michel de Deyne in March 1984.

Michel de Deyne was a famous driver at this time as he won 5 Belgian touring car championships and most of them with BMWs.

Once completed the car did one round of the Belgian championship and was entered at SPA in “Somati” colors, car number 18 driven by Michel de Deyne/Claude Bourgoignie/Kurt Thiim, 14th OA

Shortly after SPA the car was sold to “Bavaria Automobiles” a team headed by Dominique Fornage who always raced 3 to 5 635s between 1983 -1986. Included in the car’s price was an agreement for De Deyne to drive the car in ETCC in 1985.

The car raced most of the ETCC 85 championship in “Monroe shocks” colours ( nicest deco the car ever had ) driven by Ballot-Léna, De Deyne, Andruet, Metge, Belmondo, Haisnaut … and a lot of well known other drivers. SPA was raced again upon “Somati” colours ( De Deyne’s main sponsor ) by Deyne / Bourgoignie / Haezebrouck with number 10 but DNF due to transmission.

In 1986 it was raced most of the time again by Ballot-Léna with various sponsors. SPA was raced upon “Toshiba” colours with number 39 ( which it had all along the season ) finishing again 14th after the race was ruined during the night when Rahier sanded the car.

In 1987 it was sold to Robert Dupraz who previously rented the car with Bassot for the ETCC race at held Nogaro in 1986.

Robert raced the car as a Group A in 1987 but converted it to race as a “Supertourisme” in 1989.

After a long storage he sold the car in 1998 to Emile Ciglar who reverted it to Group A specifications.

In 2002 it was sold to Olivier Nicolle who spent a lot to rebuild it mechanically and raced the car still as a legal Group A at tracks and Hill Climbs were the car proved to be still a quick one !

I bought it in 2004 and decided in 2005 a nut and bolt concours restoration, the car is still unfinished due to lack of time and too many racing projects.

Thought not really for sale some picture can be seen on my web site www.florentmoulin.com in the “Car for Sale” section. I already have tons of pictures from the car in race but any new ones are welcome.

I hope this helps,

Passionately

Florent MOULIN
contact@florentmoulin.com