The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It really is hard to take seriously a factory effort that fields one car. Simply put, if they want to be on terms with Audi, they'll need to put forth a similar effort.

This year was meant as a toe in the water exercise in the shadow of another Peugeot vs Audi battle. Nobody at Toyota expected Peugeot to pull out and to be asked to become the second manufacturer and do the full WEC schedule.

[Maelochs]

Absolutely---read Toyota's press releases. 2012 was supposed to be one car at Spa and two at Le Mans (and possibly two at Fuji, but no one at the factory ever said that.) They never had plans to do more than that until Peugeot dropped and ACO came begging, because they couldn't have a "Manufacturers' World Championship" with just Audi.

After Toyota's brilliant outing at Le Mans (freaking Race Debut at Le Mans ... had it been Spa, Toyota would have WON) I don't see how people can still bash Toyota as unprofessional. With no race testing and very limited distance testing Toyota built a pair of cars which performed on par with the Audis.

Driver error was the biggest issue Toyota faced. No one knows if they would have finished had their drivers not hit and been hit, but even so ... Let's all remember who was leading the race when Ant Davidson got wrecked.

Toyota is very much for real and Very serious.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

After Toyota's brilliant outing at Le Mans (freaking Race Debut at Le Mans ... had it been Spa, Toyota would have WON) I don't see how people can still bash Toyota as unprofessional. With no race testing and very limited distance testing Toyota built a pair of cars which performed on par with the Audis.

Driver error was the biggest issue Toyota faced. No one knows if they would have finished had their drivers not hit and been hit, but even so ... Let's all remember who was leading the race when Ant Davidson got wrecked.

Toyota is very much for real and Very serious.

Alot of people from drivers to spectators keep bringing up the point that the R18s were not smoking. Many assume that this means they weren't running anywhere near a pace they were capable of. They knew Toyota would break so they set the cars up to be reliable as possible.

Audi is at an incredible level right now. Because of that I dont see Toyota winning next year against an R18 that's yet to have one mechanical problem of any substance after 2 Le Man races/120 hours of racing. Maybe if Toyota is 3 or 4 seconds a lap faster like Peugeot in 2009 they can build up a lead big enough to overcome time spent in the pits fixing a problem. Thats the only way I seem them having a chance in 2013.

[Aysedasi]

Well, my heart says I don't agree. I think Toyota will be awesome. I firmly believe their cars will be quicker and they will give Audi a very hard time indeed. Evidence? Nothing really, apart from the organisation I saw in their pit and the excitement of watching them in the early hours.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Could say the Audis were held back, but maybe the ACO told them they would finally enforce the rules regarding visible fumes. If that was the case then maybe they were running as fat as they could before the fumes would appear.

One things for sure, the Toyota was extremely fast in a straight line.

[Gingers4Justice]

Of course Audi are incredibly tough to beat, but Peugeot were a little unlucky not to beat them more and it only took three years to do it. Toyota would do well to win next year but I'd expect the battle to last till sunrise at least.

Audi seems to love this "come and beat us, if you can" attitude and beating them is as big an achievment as winning the race. Over a decade of Le Mans experience has made them almost the perfect Le Mans team and it's going to be great seeing new manufacturers join and have a pop.

Toyota have a head start for the new rules by joining now and that to me suggests they will one day win this race before leaving again. It may be with a TS040 or whatever it's called, but we're in for some spectacular racing with the TS030 I feel.

That's my post-Le Mans feelings on the effort.

On a little side-note, did anyone else notice how many times RLM called them Peugeot without noticing themselves?

[Aysedasi]

Easily done - I suspect I did it a few times myself.....

[Gingers4Justice]

Come to think of it, me too if I didn't notice!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

We saw EVERYTHING!.
But sadly, not photos of the rear of the cars where allowed.
If you have any specific questions i can try answering them based on my memory .

I am very jealous

Was there any carbon fibre used at the back of the car? According to specification the gearbox casing is aluminium, but perhaps the bell housing is carbon fibre, like on the Dome S102, the Peugeot 908, etc.

Could you tell whether the engine has direct injection? Were there high pressure fuel lines mounted directly on the cilinder head, like on the Audi R8 FSI engine? Did Toyota give any additional information about the engine?

Did you notice anything special on the rear suspension? Does Toyota use an inerter on the TS030? Racecar Engineering has a very small picture of the TF110 inerter:

Sadly the bigger pictures of the TF110 are no longer freely available...

[lightspeedracer]

Its such a beauty, ain't it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzDJrZNSwNs

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am very jealous

Was there any carbon fibre used at the back of the car? According to specification the gearbox casing is aluminium, but perhaps the bell housing is carbon fibre, like on the Dome S102, the Peugeot 908, etc.

Could you tell whether the engine has direct injection? Were there high pressure fuel lines mounted directly on the cilinder head, like on the Audi R8 FSI engine? Did Toyota give any additional information about the engine?

Did you notice anything special on the rear suspension? Does Toyota use an inerter on the TS030? Racecar Engineering has a very small picture of the TF110 inerter:

Sadly the bigger pictures of the TF110 are no longer freely available...

No carbon at the rear of the gearbox, if I remember correctly they do have direct injection, I didn't notice anything special on the rear suspension. Then again I have to say I was a bit overwhelmed back in the pits and was looking at the hybrid systems packaging to see if I could see something special.

[eps]

Originally Posted by Holt

I disagree. Theres much more to be learned from 24 hours of running at a pace 3 seconds off your maximum then there is to running full pace and breaking after 6 hours, in my opinion.

Running for a full 24 hours will help the team figure out weakpoints in the suspension or chassis in general, and real time practice for replacing noses or any other parts. How would the TS030 react to the temperature changes, or the cool temperatures of night?

As I commented on in the 24 hour race topic, in 2007 Peugeot had 44 of a possible 48 hours of data to work with. That helped them come back the next year and be 5 seconds faster then Audi. Toyota only accumulated 12 of a possible 48 hours of data.

Also, the new Toyota drivers like Buemi and Nakajima got very little running time due to the early exit.

And the whole trend of "once Toyota goes fast they break" continues. I wonder what the cause is. Any official cause for retirement besides just "engine failure"?

This is the lineup I would like to see from Toyota next year

#7
Nicolas Lapierre
Alexander Wurz
Nick Heidfeld (new)

#8
Anthony Davidson
Sebastian Buemi
Stephane Sarrazin

#9
Kazuki Nakajima
2 other Japanese drivers

Totally agree with the running around for 24hrs thing. They would have got so much data, it would have been excellent for them and really, really, useful. They need their pit crew to gel and to work in the way that Audi do. To react, instead of think and then react.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/20/t...%28Autoblog%29
Toyota apparently has more plans for Toyota Motorsport GmbH, they want to turn it into the "official tuner" much like BMW M and Mercedes AMG. At the very least their first projects will be the Lexus LS F and the Toyota Yaris WRC car

[eps]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Of course Audi are incredibly tough to beat, but Peugeot were a little unlucky not to beat them more and it only took three years to do it. Toyota would do well to win next year but I'd expect the battle to last till sunrise at least.

Audi seems to love this "come and beat us, if you can" attitude and beating them is as big an achievment as winning the race. Over a decade of Le Mans experience has made them almost the perfect Le Mans team and it's going to be great seeing new manufacturers join and have a pop.

Toyota have a head start for the new rules by joining now and that to me suggests they will one day win this race before leaving again. It may be with a TS040 or whatever it's called, but we're in for some spectacular racing with the TS030 I feel.

That's my post-Le Mans feelings on the effort.

On a little side-note, did anyone else notice how many times RLM called them Peugeot without noticing themselves?

Of course you make your own luck.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Easily done - I suspect I did it a few times myself.....

Just goes to show your level of interest and attention !!!

[Acid09]

You have to give Toyota one thing, their whole operation is extremely likable. They`re honest, humble and open to the press and fans... Audi comes off as cold and sterile in comparison.

Look what they just released for Ant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNCH7eWCmw

Nice bunch of guys, I'm pretty sure they`ll have loads of fans by the time the 2013 race comes around

[TF110]

I don't remember any faults with their pit crew? The thing they need work on is reliability. That'll come in due time. The rest of the schedule has 6(?) hour races, they lasted much longer than that. They basically have a year to get that worked out to go 24 hours. Shouldn't be much of an issue. Just stay away from Ferrari's and black deltawings!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Acid09

You have to give Toyota one thing, their whole operation is extremely likable. They`re honest, humble and open to the press and fans... Audi comes off as cold and sterile in comparison.

Excuse me?

Is that the same 'Audi' that approached 10Tenths in 2011 offering to host our garage visit at Le Mans that year?

And, is that the same 'Audi' that approached 10Tenths in 2012 offering members exclusive use of one of their hospitality lounges above the pits for one qualifying session on the Wednesday and one on the Thursday at Le Mans this year, with both Emanuele Pirro and Marco Werner present in the lounge mingling, chatting, recounting stories related to their careers and answering any questions their guests may have had?

Oh, and presumably you saw the enormous purpose built 'Audi Fan Area' at Le Mans this year?

Thought not........

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Excuse me?

Is that the same 'Audi' that approached 10Tenths in 2011 offering to host our garage visit at Le Mans that year?

And, is that the same 'Audi' that approached 10Tenths in 2012 offering members exclusive use of one of their hospitality lounges above the pits for one qualifying session on the Wednesday and one on the Thursday at Le Mans this year, with both Emanuele Pirro and Marco Werner present in the lounge mingling, chatting, recounting stories related to their careers and answering any questions their guests may have had?

Oh, and presumably you saw the enormous purpose built 'Audi Fan Area' at Le Mans this year?

Thought not........

So because they give a small number of very selected people some perks that makes them open and inviting? I don't think so...

And the "Fan Area", give me a break, that's simply a marketing device..I'm talking about honesty here.

The fact is, you never get anything out of Audi people aside from their usual PR speak while the Toyota guys are open and honest with everybody. Toyota's Ron Leupen was in the Eurosport booth twice and was talking shockingly honest about their programme, their expectations, their limitations etc.

Even Audi's former drivers like Marco Werner are obviously instructed to give little to no insight on the current programme. I really like Marco but you could tell that he was not allowed to talk openly about the current programme on TV.

It seems to me that Toyota is giving their drivers much more freedom, there's an interesting interview with Alex Wurz on Motorsport-Total where he openly talks about their struggles etc. You'll never hear something like that from Audi's drivers, it's always the usual PR speak and people are growing tired of it. The comments on German websites are full of mockery for Audi and their constant press talk...it's the same with the Nürburgring 24hrs, Audi spends such an insane amount of money for marketing that it becomes highly annoying for everyone who isn't a die-hard Audi fan.

That's what I meant by Toyota will win over many fans. Because that kind of honesty and openness is something everybody can enjoy, not just a lucky few.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

After Toyota's brilliant outing at Le Mans (freaking Race Debut at Le Mans ... had it been Spa, Toyota would have WON) I don't see how people can still bash Toyota as unprofessional. With no race testing and very limited distance testing Toyota built a pair of cars which performed on par with the Audis.

Mate, the only bashers are the dimwit Audi fan-boys that gets thrills from comparing a 11 year + effort to an 8 months effort. its funny thou because at the fifth hour of the race, Audi couldn't do anything about it when Toyota turned the wick up. what Toyota did was pure class. they came to Wec's Aid when they needed it and if you look at their page, listen to their personnel, you will notice that thy are humble and have nothing but respect for Audi and the sport. otherwise why on earth would you join as a manufacturer when you know you are handing Audi the manufacturers cup at the end of the year? what does Audi give in return? nothing but ignorance. well i tell you what. ignorance is bliss. and you know next year ill be rooting for those blue and white cars to make Audi's s**t sideways. As i have said before, TMG is no slouch. for gods sakes these guys were an ex F1 team. next year definitely (maybe even this year) i wouldn't be be very surprised if those Toyota's stomped the Audi's up and down the track. their only issue is not hanging in there and bailing at the edge of glory - their previous efforts with TS010 TS020 and the TF110 comes to mind. but lets hope that's not the case this time and they hang in there.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So because they give a small number of very selected people some perks that makes them open and inviting? I don't think so...

And the "Fan Area", give me a break, that's simply a marketing device..I'm talking about honesty here.

The fact is, you never get anything out of Audi people aside from their usual PR speak while the Toyota guys are open and honest with everybody. Toyota's Ron Leupen was in the Eurosport booth twice and was talking shockingly honest about their programme, their expectations, their limitations etc.

Even Audi's former drivers like Marco Werner are obviously instructed to give little to no insight on the current programme. I really like Marco but you could tell that he was not allowed to talk openly about the current programme on TV.

It seems to me that Toyota is giving their drivers much more freedom, there's an interesting interview with Alex Wurz on Motorsport-Total where he openly talks about their struggles etc. You'll never hear something like that from Audi's drivers, it's always the usual PR speak and people are growing tired of it. The comments on German websites are full of mockery for Audi and their constant press talk...it's the same with the Nürburgring 24hrs, Audi spends such an insane amount of money for marketing that it becomes highly annoying for everyone who isn't a die-hard Audi fan.

That's what I meant by Toyota will win over many fans. Because that kind of honesty and openness is something everybody can enjoy, not just a lucky few.

Are you talking about the same Toyota Racing organization who was contacted by Speed Channel, Eurosport and Motors TV during the LM race week to schedule appointments, only to jump on 9 out of 10 of them, and never said anything when asked about their car issues, while Audi openly showed the rubber debris from the #2 Audi that put it in the garage with handling issues until it was removed? Meanwhile, Toyota has discouraged people from taking photos of the rear of their cars when the rear decks were off and keep people out of the garage when the #7 was being worked on, even resorting to the Peugeot tactic of using bodywork to shield the car while being repaired. You didn't see Audi do that, and I think that the R18 is technically more exciting, hybrid stuff aside, than the Toyota, which if it wasn't for that hybrid system, seems to be fairly conventional based on spec sheets.

I have to agree with Bentley 03 here--recently, Audi has been rather more open than the guys from TMG, which, BTW, is a German based organization with a predominantly Franco-German staff.

[tyronnezx]

@ chernaudi

only to jump on 9 out of 10 of them,

ONLY 9 out of ten?? oh lordy shame on them!

Audi openly showed the rubber debris from the #2 Audi that put it in the garage with handling issues until it was removed?

yeah lets give audi a standing ovation for that. while we are on that lets get them to show us some sensitive parts from the car and see how they react

Meanwhile, Toyota has discouraged people from taking photos of the rear of their cars when the rear decks were off and keep people out of the garage when the #7 was being worked on, even resorting to the Peugeot tactic of using bodywork to shield the car while being repaired.

yeah once again. its not the people, its the competition that Toyota's trying to keep out. thats like mclaren giving patfry a walk around their garage. not going to happen.

You didn't see Audi do that, and I think that the R18 is technically more exciting, hybrid stuff aside, than the Toyota, which if it wasn't for that hybrid system, seems to be fairly conventional based on spec sheets.

yeeeah, each to their own. Audi needed a turbo, and a diesel with Hybrid and still got whipped by a petrol hybrid Toyota. lucky for them the Toyotas retired

[Maelochs]

Some people might thinkg Audi si the "perfect Le Mans team," but I seem to recall them losing most of their cars in 2011, and problems with pick-up fouling the intercooler inlets on the R15, which Audi wasn't ready for.

Audio has good and bad years at Le Mans. Yes they have won 11 times (more if you count the "Bentley") But they have lost, and almost lost, and made mistakes.

Toyota will have to be very, very good and very, very lucky to beat Audi ... and vice versa.

I foresee a great race, which is all I really care about.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Toyota will have to be very, very good and very, very lucky to beat Audi ... and vice versa.

I foresee a great race, which is all I really care about.

TBH mate, i dont see luck as a big deal. you make your own luck at lemans with hard work from start to the checkered flag. im thinking Toyota's off to a bloody good start on that one

[Articus]

^ So I guess Flying Lizard Motorsports makes there own luck each year at Le Mans? I dont think so. Luck is very much part of the game. The Lizards have done verything right with the PRO car. Neiman even finally decided to step out and run in the other car putting three pros in the first one. Tey have had bad luck every year. You can't say the lLizards dont work hard enough and that they are so bad that they ataully generate bad luck....