2010 Intercontinental Le Mans Cup Round 3 - Zhuhai , 6-7 November

[gwyllion]

Bourdais was nicely doing low 1:24, but when Kristensen is on his tail he is doing 1:25s.

Kristensen lap times go up from 1:24.x to 1:25.x when he is behind Bourdais and at the same time the gap to Sarrazin is increasing from 2 to 4 secs.

To me that is blocking!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Bourdais was nicely doing low 1:24, but when Kristensen is on his tail he is doing 1:25s.

Kristensen lap times go up from 1:24.x to 1:25.x when he is behind Bourdais and at the same time the gap to Sarrazin is increasing from 2 to 4 secs.

but the same figures show that after overtaking Bourdais, the laptimes of TK did not improve....

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

but the same figures show that after overtaking Bourdais, the laptimes of TK did not improve....

Making up more than 4 secs in 4 laps was impossible on old tyres. Dixit Ullrich:

After the final pit stop we caught the second Peugeot that was no longer in contention for victory but that held up Tom (Kristensen) for several laps nonetheless. Tom also ruined his tires in the process. When he finally got past the Peugeot it was no longer possible for him to win the race. In our opinion this was not a particularly fair action on the part of our competitor but, unfortunately, things like these happen in motorsport.

As mentioned earlier, I am not saying that Kristensen could easily caught up with Sarrazin and overtake him, if Bourdais was not in the way. However, it could have been an interesting fight: Kristensen on old tyres vs Sarrazin with worn brakes in traffic. Sadly we will never know...

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The laps behind Bourdais ruined his tyres. Making up more than 4 secs in 4 laps was impossible.

As mentioned earlier, I am not saying that Kristensen could easily caught up with Sarrazin and overtake him, if Bourdais was not in the way. However, it could have been an interesting fight: Kristensen on old tyres vs Sarrazin with worn brakes in traffic. Sadly we will never know...

I read elsewhere that Audi had been single stinting their tyres in the second part of the race, so did he put on new rubber at his last pitstop or the stop before that? Anyway, the Pug tyres were also in their second stint at least, I don't think they changed them during S his last stop.

Anyway, if Kristensen had been able to gain a couple of seconds back in the final four laps, his claim that he had been blocked would be much more convincing. Now it souds slightly hollow. And no, I am not saying that Bourdais did go as fast as he could, but there was also no need to brink back TK to the rear end of Sarrazin, me thinks.

But we will have to wait for Chernaudi, he will no doubt tell us the real story.....

[Dani Filth]

it's Kristen Stewart's fault I tell ya!!!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

I read elsewhere that Audi had been single stinting their tyres in the second part of the race, so did he put on new rubber at his last pitstop or the stop before that?

lap 171: Audi #7 fuel + tyres
lap 182: Peugeot #2 fuel + tyres
lap 207: Audi #7 fuel
lap 220: Peugeot #2 fuel

Earlier in the race the tyres were worn out during the second stint and a stint is around 43-45 laps. So at the end of the race Kristensen was 60 laps on the same set of Michelins and Sarrazin only 50. I guess the slow punture did not help TK either.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

if they´re better at keeping media people happy or whatever but there is certainly a pro-Audi bias in the media, including RLM, SPEED, Eurosport and some big websites.

I already pointed out that some French websites noticed the dubious tactical decision of Peugeot to position Bourdais between Kristensen and Sarrazin at the end of the race. I found another one for you

Manque de fair-play ?
...
Il est clair que, pour la beauté du geste, on aurait apprécié que la 908 n°1, qui n'avait plus aucune chance, ne joua pas ce jeu trouble. De toute façon, rester dans les roues de Tom en le harcelant était également un moyen de le ralentir (si tant est que Seb ait réellement freiné le danois) en obligeant le pilote Audi Ã* surveiller aussi ses rétroviseurs.

source: http://www.86400.fr/articles/103-100...asse-en-force-

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

it's Kristen Stewart's fault I tell ya!!!

You still have not explained how driving 1:24s, then slowing down more than 7 seconds, and then driving 1:25s while your team mates pulls away, does not qualify as "blocking".

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I already pointed out that some French websites noticed the dubious tactical decision of Peugeot to position Bourdais between Kristensen and Sarrazin at the end of the race. I found another one for you
source: http://www.86400.fr/articles/103-100...asse-en-force-

I don't speak more than 10 words of French so this research-work is somewhat wasted on me, thanks anyways

My comment regarding the media bias towards Audi was more of a rant in general, not particularly about yesterday`s race.

[gwyllion]

I agree that this has historical reasons: secrecy about the car, Lamy hitting Rockenfeller in Monza 2008 before he had to do a stop and go penalty, Peugeot mechanics cheering for Audi's bad luck in 2009, attitude of drivers in interview (e.g., Montagny), etc.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Franck Montagny is Robert Pattinson in ten years.
http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ai_Qualifs.jpg

The latter is just a foot face. Montagny is... well... French.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I agree that this has historical reasons: secrecy about the car, Lamy hitting Rockenfeller in Monza 2008 before he had to do a stop and go penalty, Peugeot mechanics cheering for Audi's bad luck in 2009, attitude of drivers in interview (e.g., Montagny), etc.

This is exactly why Peugeot is disliked. They seem to constantly lack class and everyone sees it. Plus, how many people actually own Peugeots and buy their product?

That probably has a lot to do with why they seem to lack a stronger fan base. All the 908 bandwagon jumpers are on there just because they want to cheer against Audi I'm sure. Not because Peugeot is their favorite car manuf.

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You still have not explained how driving 1:24s, then slowing down more than 7 seconds, and then driving 1:25s while your team mates pulls away, does not qualify as "blocking".

would've been blocking if Bourdais was doing those 1:27 with TK .5 of a second behind trying passes
doing 1:25s 1-2 seconds behind Bourdais isn't blocking

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

This is exactly why Peugeot is disliked. They seem to constantly lack class and everyone sees it. Plus, how many people actually own Peugeots and buy their product?

That probably has a lot to do with why they seem to lack a stronger fan base. All the 908 bandwagon jumpers are on there just because they want to cheer against Audi I'm sure. Not because Peugeot is their favorite car manuf.

I have a Pug ..

[Victor_RO]

If what Peugeot did falls squarely in the bin of questionable team tactics (I'm not sure, because I was driving home at that precise moment), I think there's a bit of a Latin tone to this whole issue of team tactics/orders in motorsport going wrong in terms of PR in the last 10 years. It can probably all be narrowed down to a question of different mentalities between the Latin/Gallic side of Peugeot Sport and the more Germanic approach of Joest and Audi Sport. They both stride to win, but each of them is trying to use tactics that the other isn't thinking about using, and one side is inevitably going to go nearer to the extremes of what is fair.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

This is exactly why Peugeot is disliked. They seem to constantly lack class and everyone sees it. Plus, how many people actually own Peugeots and buy their product?

That probably has a lot to do with why they seem to lack a stronger fan base. All the 908 bandwagon jumpers are on there just because they want to cheer against Audi I'm sure. Not because Peugeot is their favorite car manuf.

Nonsense - with respect. There are almost certainly vastly more Peugeot owners around than Audi owners. I don;t cheer any marque in sportscar racing because it happens to be my favourite manufacturer - I don't have a favourite manufacturer.

[Dani Filth]

with 8 laps to go was the first blue flag shown
with 5 laps to go Bourdais almost had to "force" a pass from TK staying behind a gt car in T1 as he was miles behind

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

would've been blocking if Bourdais was doing those 1:27 with TK .5 of a second behind trying passes

These are LMP cars we are talking about, not touring cars. Like F1 cars it is difficult to overtake a car that is similarly fast. There are more suttle ways to slow down a competitor...

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

doing 1:25s 1-2 seconds behind Bourdais isn't blocking

Maybe you missed this comment from TK:

With the lead we had, the safety car killed us. From then on it was really tough. Driving behind Bourdais I noticed how much the aero upsetted my car.

I can't understand how you can ignore the fact that Bourdais deliberately slowed down and started driving in front of Kristensen and claim that this had no influence at all. You make it sound that Sarrazin pulled away from TK, as of Bourdais wasn't there.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by 911targa

congratulations to the GT-overall winner,Porsche GT3 R Hybrid,driven by Joerg Bergmeister and Patrick Long.hope we can see this car race at La Sarthe in the future

It was interesting to see the hybrid go so much further on fuel that the gt2's. Would be interesting to see how this translates at lemans

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

This is exactly why Peugeot is disliked. They seem to constantly lack class and everyone sees it. Plus, how many people actually own Peugeots and buy their product?

There must be quite a few given the fact that Peugeot has sold over 50 million cars. I´ve owned two Peugeots and they´re fine cars in their price range... of course nothing like Audi or BMW but not with the same price tag attached either.

Peugeot isn't even my favorite manufacturer, BMW is, but I like the way they´ve been tackling the sports car project. They´ve been taking a lot of risks from the start, introducing a coupe when it wasn't considered the best option, having the strongest engine, the first six-speed gearbox for a Diesel...

Their program has just been exciting, they´ve always been trying to do it on speed and put on a great show. Audi Sport is efficient but that's the nicest thing you can say about them...they´re way too German (and take that from a German...) and I don't see how one can seriously root for them... there's just nothing... charming (I don't know how to put it differently) about their efforts.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Acid09

There must be quite a few given the fact that Peugeot has sold over 50 million cars. I´ve owned two Peugeots and they´re fine cars in their price range... of course nothing like Audi or BMW but not with the same price tag attached either.

Peugeot isn't even my favorite manufacturer, BMW is, but I like the way they´ve been tackling the sports car project. They´ve been taking a lot of risks from the start, introducing a coupe when it wasn't considered the best option, having the strongest engine, the first six-speed gearbox for a Diesel...

Their program has just been exciting, they´ve always been trying to do it on speed and put on a great show. Audi Sport is efficient but that's the nicest thing you can say about them...they´re way too German (and take that from a German...) and I don't see how one can seriously root for them... there's just nothing... charming (I don't know how to put it differently) about their efforts.

I just laughed after reading this.

Nothing charming about Audis sports car projects???

They were the first to run FSI in the LMP cars and the first to run a Diesel prototype.

Look at the original R15 aero concept that they came out with

They also mastered the art of making their cars fixable and repair friendly in the pits which makes for exciting races when incidents happen

Peugeot introduced the 908 after the R10 had been running for 2 years and what did it look like....

An R10 with a closed cockpit, but they made their engine more powerful. thats real innovative

[Acid09]

The R10 looks like an open-top 908? You should seriously get your eyes fixed..

Plus, the 908 was revealed when the R10 was running for less than a year and was in all major aspects (aerodynamics, engine, gearbox) far mor advanced than the R10.

In fact, it was so advanced that, even though it was designed five years ago, Audi is still not able to match its speed.

But your arrogant attitude is somewhat typical as Audi fans seem to think they own sports car racing just because their make has dominated the past century, most of the time not having a serious competitor I might add.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by joeb

It was interesting to see the hybrid go so much further on fuel that the gt2's. Would be interesting to see how this translates at lemans

I wonder how that would translate to Le Mans and a lightweight P1.

I was under the impression you either set the system up for extra performance or fuel economy but the 911 seemed to have both.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Peugeot isn't even my favorite manufacturer, BMW is, but I like the way they´ve been tackling the sports car project. They´ve been taking a lot of risks from the start, introducing a coupe when it wasn't considered the best option, having the strongest engine, the first six-speed gearbox for a Diesel...

I mainly admire Peugeot for their engine: more powerful (partly because of bigger restrictor for coupe) and still lower fuel consumption than Audi's diesel engines. They were the first to use steel pistons and titanium con rods. The first choice worked out quite nice, the second a bit less

However I never liked the looks of the 908 (e.g., their low drag Le Mans aero is so basic). I find it the worst looking LMP1 coupe, especially if you compare it to the lovely Dome S102. Nor did I like their attitude in the beginning (e.g., complaining about the R15 before it did any laps at Le Mans).

I must congratulate Peugeot for picking the coupe shape. Their crystal ball was able to predict that the ACO would take away the two disadvantages of a coupe: weight penalty and slower driver change

Personally I don't consider using a 6 speed gearbox as a big acomplishment.

Finally Peugeot did look at Audi for inspiration a lot: Bosch for electronics and injection, Mahle for pistons, Garnett for turbos, Dow for particulate filters, Michelin tyres, copying the pit routines of Joest, ...

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Acid09

......Audi Sport is efficient but that's the nicest thing you can say about them...they´re way too German (and take that from a German...) and I don't see how one can seriously root for them... there's just nothing... charming (I don't know how to put it differently) about their efforts.

That is one of the things that I like about the way that Audi work. They are so damn efficient, and to put it bluntly, the R15's have been dogs compared to the R10 and R8.
You could say something along the same lines re Peugeot ie, they're way to French. I won't go any further but you know where I am coming from.