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15 Feb 2024, 04:25 (Ref:4196782) | #351 | |
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I think there are multiple valid approaches. And mine only is on the pre-condition that they are not going to allow extra teams in. Which I prefer to not be the situation. I prefer more teams.
One of my concerns with my proposal is the propagation of two tier system by having teams getting some type of special classification. I like the payout being weighted towards the top of the grid. That might address some of my concerns. I haven't fully digested your proposal, but I tend to think that before the big teams agree to anything (yours or mine) they would negotiate protections that us as fans and especially those who are driving toward a more "sports" oriented solution (such as yours) would not be happy with. And FOM feels the big teams are the "product" and are likely to give them special considerations to ensure their participation. My biggest wish is for the sport to not be to big. For budgets to be smaller. For manufactures to not be in the sport, or at least have much less influence (driven by the commercial rights holder). I fear we are moving far off topic. At least I am. I mean this is about solving the problem Andretti is experiencing, but it's just a big thought experiment that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. I expect the next Concorde agreement to be much the same as the current, but with a rework on the anti-dilution values/process and maybe small adjustments to the cap ex spending limits. Richard |
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15 Feb 2024, 05:33 (Ref:4196785) | #352 | ||
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Someone finding an advantage in aero and catching them napping? That is insanity bordering on psychosis. I just named half the existing teams. The others are racing for scraps. In reality the next Concorde will be decided by the teams in the next few years. The more powerful the team, the greater the influence. The only way to undermine that is to expose straw man arguments and the contrived nonsense around money. Having money and access to it doesn't make you one of the best people handle it. I spent more than a decade of my 40-year working life living and working with people who lived on less than 3-4 USD a day. Don't ever think they're not kind, gentle, generous, giving, loving, faithful or reliable. People with money can be much worse, much more greedy, manipulative and obsessive. It's one of the reasons I question everything that comes from people with power. So whatever is going in in politics or in business or F1, you follow the money trail and see where it takes you. So my initial comments were, and still are to question the rhetoric so many seem to take for granted. Dealing with the alleged loss to teams an additional team would create is one of those efforts to show the truth. The math's doesn't lie and the proportions, even if they are not exact, show where the money goes and relatively who gets it The winning team gets double what a tenth (or 11th team in my breakdown) so you can see how much is actually needed by a smaller team. Like RBR will get approximately 130+ million for 2023, and Hass about 65 million. But that is based on a billion for 2023 and the reports indicate a higher payout was on the cards. The previous Concorde was very specific about dispensations, allowances for Ferrari and McLaren, etc. I would expect the present one is similar in layout. It is not an agreement that would give Liberty a lot of latitude in payouts to the teams and is very much like a negotiated settlement. My system isn't two tiers. it is a single line with one team without a step on the ladder if there were 12 teams and 11 rungs on the ladder. No different to having ten rungs and Andretti as the tenth team. IndyCar isn't a lot different. The top 22 entries across the year get $915000 each and the rest get nothing. They have to pull in what they can from drivers and sponsors. Only the Indy 500 pays real prize money. That is just reality. Laurence Stroll knows what he is in for and how it works. So far, he has done a pretty good job as an independent operator. There is no reason why Andretti couldn't do as well across a three-year time span. That is why the final decision was so full of nonsense and self-justification. If we do nothing on this site but unravel the self-importance and the rubbish behind the contrived arguments presented, then we are educating people or at least giving them reasons to think more critically about how our favorite sport is being managed. That at least, makes it it worthwhile writing a post. |
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15 Feb 2024, 20:47 (Ref:4196855) | #353 | ||
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Shortcuts are more fun..
Like having your bestie tilt at windmills and publicly announce a distaste for one organisation owning two teams.. Perhaps opening up an opportunity for AG to swoop in and buy… |
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16 Feb 2024, 23:49 (Ref:4196991) | #354 | ||
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GM positive about F1 with Andretti - work still underway including contact with FOM.
Sounds positive, also that both Andretti and GM want to meet with FOM after missing that email invitation from FOM. No doubt one of the things they'll be looking for is some kind of surety regarding 2028, so that they can keep working & investing towards that. |
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17 Feb 2024, 02:29 (Ref:4197006) | #355 | ||
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* GM is taking the high road (good for them, I wouldn't be as gracious) * They are calling out that the FIA approved them * They are confident in the existing application that was turned down by FOM * There is no way to bring an engine forward earlier than 2028 due to existing FIA power unit supplier regulations * GM and Andretti are still partners * They want to talk to FOM As to the last point, I would say that no doubt, GM and Andretti want to know speak honestly and frankly in private with FOM. Given their comments, I think they also want to salvage the current entry vs. wait until some future date. Richard |
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17 Feb 2024, 09:54 (Ref:4197030) | #356 | |||
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Wasn’t there a rule, or a policy or protocol some time ago that a new engine supplier entering the sport needed to, if called upon, supply engines to more than just that team? Or did I dream that? Perhaps GM can just buy HaasF1… |
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17 Feb 2024, 13:08 (Ref:4197047) | #357 | |
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Exactly, although they may also have to learn to listen to the guidance given to them.
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17 Feb 2024, 14:07 (Ref:4197056) | #358 | ||
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18 Feb 2024, 07:56 (Ref:4197144) | #359 | ||
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Id have problem with Mercedes or Ferrari having a second team either. And Id probably have no problem with Ferrari part owning a team with someone like Dallara and collaborating. If I was moving right away from the present situation Id have no problem with teams selling chassis to private teams. I'd have no problem with someone like Dallara being able to sell replicas of last year's Ferrari to private teams either. And I'd have no problem with single car private teams like Frank Williams did for Piers Courage in 1969, or Rob Walker did for Moss and Siffert at different times. Do people honestly buy the argument that such additions would 'dilute the value of F1' drivel? I'd have qualifying for 26 places back too. All of this is unlikely given the expense of the engine leases and you could run into problems like IndyCar where there aren't enough leases to go around but that just takes us back to the idea that the current engine formula is derived as an answer to the rhetoric about the planet and sustainability, so we won't delve too deeply there. But allowing single entries and allowing used chassis or copies or the sale of chassis would allow people like stroll to set up a satellite team or a single car operation, oe rent a seat with a 'private team' for Lance. It would have been a lot cheaper. The sport in fact has made the cost of competing much, much, higher by the insistence on a set of parameters that add to and inflate the cost of competition. This is also why the present rhetoric about the value of the teams is just so much nonsense. Owning an F1 'works' team is highly inflated. In business terms it is a joke. It is only useful to a commercial body as an advertising and promotions vehicle as long as the return on the running and investment costs can be justified by the amount of benefit derived through publicity and success. If that benefit doesn't add up, then the team is gone or sold. If it is not successful, then the value is greatly reduced. |
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19 Feb 2024, 01:22 (Ref:4197211) | #360 | |||
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I thought this guys ideas were worth a chat
ohhhh wait Quote:
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19 Feb 2024, 17:03 (Ref:4197326) | #361 | |||
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I'd have no problem with teams running more than two cars, as Ferrari and others did in the (distant) past. |
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20 Feb 2024, 01:38 (Ref:4197379) | #362 | |||
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That’s one idea I disagree with. |
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20 Feb 2024, 07:52 (Ref:4197394) | #363 | ||
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I'd have no problem with the FIA laying down the law and telling f1 it has to go up to 24 cars .
However the FIA have lost control and the liberty monster will end up having to eat it's own hand when manufacturers decide it's not selling them any electric cars |
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21 Feb 2024, 00:08 (Ref:4197527) | #364 | ||
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But I would have some caveats on the situation of running a third car. My reasoning runs around the existence of the constructors championship which would in effect become a 'teams' championship in those points scored for the teams' championship would be limited to the two nominated cars for the season. The third car could be run by the team but not be eligible for points. But if a third car was run by a separate team entry that team would score points under its own name. This is also behind he ide of teams able to sell cars or run a 'B' tea so the VCARB situation becomes a non-issue as some people are talking things up at the moment. It would be more likely then that teams would either have a 'B; team or it would be more effective to sell chassis to an effective privateer as Rob Walker was or Frank Williams was for several years. And no. I don't think that we would see RBR dominating the podium all year. Not at all. The possibility of someone doing a Wolf and Scheckter thing may be remote but Brawn was effectively such a surprise, and again it was an aero idea that no one else had thought of until it actually happened... |
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21 Feb 2024, 08:35 (Ref:4197573) | #365 | |
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I think running third cars would not be practical in the long run. Really would just help the top teams more of an advantage. If teams could run third cars on a one off basis, that would be a different story, but I can't see that happening. Really the FIA need to try to encourage more F1 teams to join, despite what FOM, Liberty and the other teams think.
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21 Feb 2024, 09:48 (Ref:4197584) | #366 | ||
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3rd cars are not needed. Another couple of new teams would be welcome though. Doh.
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23 Feb 2024, 22:26 (Ref:4198006) | #367 | |
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look at 1977 for example, it's just amazing how many teams and privateers there were
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Formula_One_season some Grand prix had near 40 cars entered !! and only 26 could start https://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/...977-07-16.html |
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23 Feb 2024, 22:38 (Ref:4198009) | #368 | ||
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Richard |
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23 Feb 2024, 23:14 (Ref:4198013) | #369 | ||
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Wow, some curious ones who didn’t show up at the British GP. Notably Derek Bell |
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28 Feb 2024, 19:57 (Ref:4198715) | #370 | ||
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"Process was followed" according to Domenicali in rejection of Andretti "pre GM" entry.
He also says that work is due to start on the new Concorde Agreement very soon, which is good news - sooner the terms of that are known, better for all concerned I think. |
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28 Feb 2024, 20:02 (Ref:4198717) | #371 | ||
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I’d like to know how it was different from the FIA’s process that accepted Andretti |
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28 Feb 2024, 20:14 (Ref:4198723) | #372 | ||
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28 Feb 2024, 21:12 (Ref:4198740) | #373 | ||
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Richard |
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10 Apr 2024, 15:17 (Ref:4204491) | #374 | ||
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There is a video floating around in instagram suggesting that Andretti Global has opened a new facility at Silverstone for the F1 project.
There are a heap of people in the video, all in Andretti attire.. With patriarch Mario in the clip talking about it being the next step.. To what I don’t know.. Is this like St Edwards Hospital from Yes Minister fame? Fully staffed, fully equipped, most efficient hospital in the NHS.. except they didn’t have the budget to take on patients… |
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10 Apr 2024, 15:44 (Ref:4204493) | #375 | |||
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