Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[miatanut]

I love BTCC, FF and Miata Cup. Except for sportscars, all other forms of racing are pale imitations with a lot more power and a lot less connection to road-going cars.

I guess different strokes...

[Purist]

Here's another way to look at it. Most people do NOT own "exciting" cars, so why would they want to idolize racing in which the cars remind them of their unexciting, uninspiring grocery-getter? They wouldn't; it's just that simple.

BJS, I was referring to what just about everyone i've seen comment sees as excessive contact in BTCC races.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I thought you meant the reverse grid all the antics that went on with that. I suppose it is excessive but at the same time it seems to have become an aspect of the BTCC; but something needs to be done otherwise it will degenerate.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

There's a reason for that. Road cars are slow.

Funny, but not true. There are plenty of road cars as fast or faster than anything on a track. Without listing the dozens of them, the Corvette Z06 we drove and wrote about in the summer of 2006 was 3.7 0-60 and 198 mph top end.

In road racing, at least, race cars are only marginally faster, if at all, most series being horsepwer restricted. It's not a new phenomenon, the McLaren F1 being "milded" from its street version to fit GT1 rules in the mid-nineties.

Standing by a fence, non of today's super cars will look slow. Open wheel isn't very close to road cars in any case, but can you tell the difference between 195 and 205 mph without a radar gun and without the cars being side-by-side? I can't.

[gttouring]

well all this is well and good- discussing merits of the series' and there respective takes on what to race.
my concern is the IRL looking for a Spec car to replace the existing spec car.
it is major league top level open wheel racing- i thought they need a formula.
and if it be 500kg cars and turbo 4cylinders great- but
the delta wing? really the best answer to the questions they were asking?
i think this is an important issue to look at.
it is not possible the Deltawing car is actually the best solution.
narrower tyres? ok
lighter- right
better air flow to create down force and minimize drag great
but narrow trike set up? and setting the driver 20 inches back? W.T. Farkle?
why not try a roadster in a similar vein? or the option for one- let Indy car teams whatever weapon is needed - not what is dictated for no reason other than to be controversial or drama producing.
the roadsters ruled too, i heard a big offy a fair a few summers back- that is a sound.
and if these cars run Ethanol/ methanol why the arguments for fuel economy- the dinosaur juice suckers need to hold that at a higher stake i think than a renewable plant or trash gas product.

[Purist]

Let's see that Corvette accelerate (either positive or negative acceleration) or corner as quickly as an Indy Car. I'm not the typical American and just the drag strip don't cut it for me, so you're going to have to do better than that.

And there's still only a handful of "supercars", if that, that anyone has heard of that can match the top-end speeds at Indy (McLaren F1 and Koenigsegg CCR are the main ones). The Saleen S7, Ferrari Enzo/Maserati MC12, Lamborghini Murcielago, and Mercedes-McLaren SLR top out 10-20mph short, and next to nobody even knows about the SSC Ulitimate Aero, Gumpert Apollo, or Ascari (not sure if the KZ1 or A10 is the hotter car).

I don't count the Bugatti Veyron with the aforementioned since it's not really a sports car; it's an ultra-fast tourer, but can't handle worth a darn given its size and two ton weight. I also don't consider cars that have had to be seriously modified to reach those top-end and horsepower numbers, so there go your Henneseys and whatever else you wanted to throw in.

And back on the Mclaren F1, the engine was slightly detuned, or tuned up, depending on the trim the car was to be raced in. Some versions cut power back from 627hp to 600hp, while a few racing versions (perhaps British or Japanese GT) had the output boosted to as much as 680hp. Also, the GT1 racing versions had some 600lb of weight removed relative to the road car, which would actually make them quicker on track than the road car, even if a few mph were shaved off of the absolute top speed.

GTTouring, any shop building cars will need the capacity to make some sacrifical chasses for crash testing, and also be able to make modifications if issues are found. Apart from that, the series I'm sure wants this to be a viable financial investment for any constructor involved. And it seems many are of the mind that the Indy Car pie is too small a market for multiple builders to find it an equitable endeavor.

So you think the Delta Wing isn't the ticket; none of the other propsals are necessarily far enough from the status quo to do the job, so what do we do?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by TWK

Funny, but not true. There are plenty of road cars as fast or faster than anything on a track. Without listing the dozens of them, the Corvette Z06 we drove and wrote about in the summer of 2006 was 3.7 0-60 and 198 mph top end.

In road racing, at least, race cars are only marginally faster, if at all, most series being horsepwer restricted. It's not a new phenomenon, the McLaren F1 being "milded" from its street version to fit GT1 rules in the mid-nineties.

Standing by a fence, non of today's super cars will look slow. Open wheel isn't very close to road cars in any case, but can you tell the difference between 195 and 205 mph without a radar gun and without the cars being side-by-side? I can't.

You're talking about speed. I'm talking about quickness. A GT2 spec Porsche would **** all over 95 percent of road cars on corner entry, apex speed and corner exit if driven by the same capable driver.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TWK

Funny, but not true. There are plenty of road cars as fast or faster than anything on a track. Without listing the dozens of them, the Corvette Z06 we drove and wrote about in the summer of 2006 was 3.7 0-60 and 198 mph top end.

An F1 car can do up to 220 mph.

[Félix]

(http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no222.html)
Well after reading this , I'm more and more convinced that it IS going to be the DeltaWing. It sounds very interesting technically and it's what makes the most sense to put open-wheel racing back on the map in America.

Now what will be interesting is:
-what the IRL will do with their stupid preference for the dumb-looking (in comparison) Dallara and their car choice planned for May, and how well all that will go down with most team owners.
-what traditional car manufacturers will do when given DeltaForce rules and blueprints
-how "perfectly good" the concept will be when it final hits the track, especially from a race driver's non-PR'ed POV.

[JagtechOhio]

Enjoy the Koolaid.

It this deal gets rammed through, you can have the glass they poured for me, too.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Félix

(http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no222.html).

That's a very interesting article, however I just don't think the racing public are ready for something as radical as the Delta Wing. As they say the proof of the pudding will be in the eating so we'll just have to see how the Delta Wing performs later this year. Reading the posts on this forum and this thread as well as seeing how people have voted, it would seem there is a hankering for open wheel racing to return to how it was before the split in 1996.

[Juarez Jed]

I agree that the one good thing to come out of the Deltawing proposal is that people are talking about Indycars again and that there are plans for it to have a future when it appeared there was none.
However I don't think the Deltawing , even if it does go round corners, would rejuvinate the series on its own. I think mountainstar is right in that it just gives the owners an avenue to go down if and when the speedway endorses the Dallara.
As for the racing, I would love to see a Deltawing design on the track, it reminds me of the streamliner Mercedes at Reims, but a grid full of them and nothing else would be just as uninspiring to watch as a grid full of Radical sportscars is today.
I would rather see a grid full of the new Gold Crown cars fight out the 500, with free aero rules to allow some diversity in appearance and technical innovation. They would be affordable for privateers as well as the big teams. But don't bother bagging me, I know this will never happen. It is just my 2 cents worth.
Added to my previous campaign to contest the 500 with asphalt modifieds if the IRL "fell over", I realise I have now had my four cents worth, so I will probably just sit back and watch with interest now.
It is good to see such passionate views from everyone anyway, it shows we still care !

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

As for the racing, I would love to see a Deltawing design on the track, it reminds me of the streamliner Mercedes at Reims, but a grid full of them and nothing else would be just as uninspiring to watch as a grid full of Radical sportscars is today.

That's precisely the problem with IRL at the moment all the cars are the same. In the Gordon Kirby article Ben Bowlby says how when he watched the Indy 500, the cars looked the same, behaved the same and sounded the same; it's boring.

Ferrari threatened to leave F1 when the FIA suggested a spec engine each team could 'badge'. Spec racing at the top level doesn't work. You need competition and rivalry. Unfortunately the economic situation doesn't help, so expenditure has to be rained in. They've managed to do it in F1 but it took some serious talking but it's paid off. So I hope the IRL can come up with a solution that allows for a multi chassis series that's affordable, otherwise another spec series will only delay the inevitable.

With all that said and done, even after a new chassis is selected and all the excitement that's going to go with it, there is still another year of Dallaras to go.

[JagtechOhio]

Two

[bjohnsonsmith]

I should have said another year to go after this one.

[JagtechOhio]

Don't sweat it, nobody else seems to give a hoot either.

Marketing is based on the four "P"s: the first one is Product.
So the plan is to Promote (#2) this product without doing anything to improve it for two full years.

That looks to me like a lot of investment to reach new fans, and precious little reason to expect you can keep their interest.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Don't worry I'm not going to sweat it, I'm just anticipating the tedium. and yes what a fantastic marketing srategy; it beggars belief.

[JagtechOhio]

And today, it gets better. Roger Penske, who is a charter member of the Delta Wing Group, today suggested that it could be delayed until 2013 so that the prototyping and testing could receive proper evaluation.

So if they sell that idea to the IICS (who don't seem to be too overwrought about missing deadlines), it's three years before any selected chassis hits the track.

Brilliant.

[bjohnsonsmith]

What's the point then in attempting to get all these other manufacturers on board and then saying, sorry but you're going to have to wait another year? They are not going to spend $xyz amount on prelimanary R&D and then sit on it, not with the present economic conditions and as far as an open source Delta Wing is concerned, it's still basically a one chassis spec car; Chip has his version and Rog has his.

Then inevitably what will happen is one team will say another team's version is illegal and you and up going down that route. That's why you need more than one chassis. It allows for a wider interpretation of the rules, as in F1; not that that hasn't stopped wrangles like the one about the Brawn double diffuser last year.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And today, it gets better. Roger Penske, who is a charter member of the Delta Wing Group, today suggested that it could be delayed until 2013 so that the prototyping and testing could receive proper evaluation.

So if they sell that idea to the IICS (who don't seem to be too overwrought about missing deadlines), it's three years before any selected chassis hits the track.

Brilliant.

Well I think the current chassis should be eligible for historic racing with HSR this year, so they can't be foolin around for too long. The 3 years is malarkey and any manufacturer like Lola or Dallara could do up a car ready to go in 6 months or a year.

This whole thing reminds me of the last 18 months of Champcar. No one knows who is running things or what is going on.

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And today, it gets better. Roger Penske, who is a charter member of the Delta Wing Group, today suggested that it could be delayed until 2013 so that the prototyping and testing could receive proper evaluation.

Oh please no!

Whatever the future of IndyCar, they must act fast.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Is there anyone on the sidelines waiting to pick up the pieces? Or will the Delta Wingers wait untill the IRL is dead and say everyone has to race their way?

[JagtechOhio]

Star,

I sure can't relate to the Cart reference but this:

"No one knows who is running things or what is going on."

This, I have to agree with. Bernard took over his desk yesterday. Angstadt has been on Brazil all winter, Barnhart has said very little publicly from what I have found, and the chassis selection is supposed to be announced in May.

BAT has a fifth proposal for a chassis due to drop, and none of them know what engine IICS will specify to build the cars around.

So Delta has set up their own organization, with eight or ten owners invested (according to Chip), and a prototype under development for August.

To johnson: Pieces? Hard to say who will feel like that's all they are left with. But there are only two groups positioned to pick them up, or watch them crumble. Delta and IICS. And no sign of any collaborative effort yet between the two.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The 3 years is malarkey and any manufacturer like Lola or Dallara could do up a car ready to go in 6 months or a year.

I would agree the 3 years is malarkey, but if you are going to turn the conventional understanding of chassis dynamics on its head, it's going to take longer than normal to develop the car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I would agree the 3 years is malarkey, but if you are going to turn the conventional understanding of chassis dynamics on its head, it's going to take longer than normal to develop the car.

That's understood but they can't extend the series, just so they can eventually understand the new chassis dynamics. By then the only race people will want to go to will be the Indy 500 itself. Anyway I thought Honda were quitting after 2011, so where's the interim engine going to come from, or will they continue to flog the Honda engine until an engine rebuild is no longer possible?