Hans Question

[DarrellB]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

second point for not wearing a open face or hans is, that a steering wheel can give you the same effect !
in most touring cars you sit so close to the wheel, that when the belts stretch, you are likely to hit the wheel with your helmet ! again i have
expierienced that with a lot of customers ! non had a bsf in those crashes !
its ok to hit the wheel, as the helmet is constructed to protect your head
from outside damage, and decelerate your head slow enough for your brain
( if any ) not to be shaken too badly.

Are really being serious??

you seem to have no idea about mechanisms of injury!!!

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by Red Baron

Good to know you can quote a reliable source of info

sorry, it was meant that people told me it was impossible, but i have personally seen differently !

Originally Posted by Red Baron

I suspect that they would not have hit the steering wheel if they were wearing a HANS. Sadly, had they suffered a BSF they would not be queuing upto get their helmet painted!!!!

"it's ok to hit the steering wheel"????????????



Cars that are stupidly faster than fighter planes????Crikey, what do you drive?????

yes, you are right, wearing a hans they would not have hit the steering wheel.
i just try to explain that hitting the steering wheel, stopps your head in
a lot of cars before the critical point to bsf aswell. had at least two customers , where i witnessed theire head on crashes, that need to be dead
now if the ONLY solution was hans.
and wearing a full face helmet should safe you from injury when hitting it.
at least it worked in the cases i saw.

just a open face helmet with hans is useless to downright stupid.

never said racecars faster than fighter planes !
please read more carefully...

also driving position needs to be a factor !
in a lieing down positionn you will have your neck streched a lot more,
even before the impact, thus giving it less room to stretch before it brakes.

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by DarrellB

Are really being serious??

you seem to have no idea about mechanisms of injury!!!

yes, i am serious !

do you have a clue what you talk about ?

if so, you are welcome to tell me where you think i am off !

have spoken to many designers and test laboratory personell in several
helmet companys, so i would think i have a slight clue...

[carsten.meurer]

seems some people don't want to take the whole picture !

i am not against the use of hans in general !

if it works for you and your car its great for you !
should no be a problem to make it work sensibly in most modern touring cars.
still i would see different solutions for me personally...

but the problem is there are cars racing on this planet, where a hans is
more likely to cause harm than good !

or to put it diffrently, cars that are so outdated, that they are not safe to be
used with a hans device !
classic single seaters, with low rollbars and no side head protection for
example. lots of other classics for sure too.
in most of these cars not only cockpit dimensions, roll over bars, but also
seatbelt mounting positions are not compatible with hans.

you need to look at the cars individually, but this is not done !

i know i am just stupid, and you all are around much longer and are a lot
smarter, but i see a big potential for future problems in making the device
mandatory for those cars.

then again i am repeating myself, to make a point to people who seem to
not have read the whole thread and taken in the positive and negative
assumptions, and the lack of evidence in general.

[midgetman]

So if go right back to the start of the thread where andy97 (remember him?) was asking for some advice, can I ask some advice from those who are using HANS:

1. Did we decide standard seats OK?

2. What about belts? 3" ones still work?

3. Instructions with the TRS "saloon" belts recommend that the shoulder straps are crossed behind the seat. Does this affect using the HANS?

4. How much, all up, are we budgetting from real-life experience?

5. I can find the seat belt angles. From experience, does angling the belt affect comfort/performance? There is a range given, which is most effective?

6. Denis mentioned not being able to reach bits of his car - is this really because of the HANS or is it just that the belts are done up properly for the first time!!!!???!!!

7. Real life experiences from drivers about belts slipping off? What about sharing a car with non-HANS-wearing drivers - any difficulties at driver change?

I'm asking because the balance of evidence has swung me towards buying one if it can be made to work in my car, but hasn't convinced me on compulsion. I still perceive the BSF risk as small, but I had a sore neck after my last light shunt and I think HANS may help prevent that, stop my head impacting s/wheel (Carsten, I really don't buy your argument here mate, even if the helmet did protect me I'd rather not do that) and generally let me go back to work on Monday morning rather than sit around "recovering".

[johnw]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

hans was constructed for fighter planes with no wheels,

Carsten, do you have any evidence of this?

Read the Hubbard/Downing website and you will see that HANS was developed for Motor Racing after a friend of one of the guys was badly injured in a race crash.

I absolutely agree with you being able to make the choice, but do stop inventing things to make your case, as it devalues your input.

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

the problem is the way the hans was introduced as a magic 'fix all' the research was inadequate and sales based as it was funded by the manufacturers.

Initially Hans type devices were being developed for USAF fast jet pilots - they did not adopt the system - why not?

there is evidence (that I've seen but can't pin down) that suggests Hans increases the risk of brain injury.

I think a lot more research is needed. Or someone to look at the numbers - how many people suffered with BSF in the ten years before hans?

those of you who swear by Hans - do you really know what you are talking about - do you know what Hans is designed for, do you know its design limitations, its effective angle limitations, do you even know why you bought it, do you know that side impacts are far more dangerous than head ons?

I suggest you all read up on the independent research on Hans (oh thats it it doesn't exist) or look at Racecar Engineering V16N2 which highlights the risks of side impacts.

Hans secures your skull and basically stops you neck breaking in a very specific impact type. It does nothing more and some evidence suggests that it can in fact worsen your injuries.

Do you really know anything about that thing on your neck? or how safety systems like it get approved by the FIA?

john, i basically went along the lines of the above info !
he seems to have done a lot of research on it. some info i had from people
involved with testing it too, so its not out of this world.

if you need to justify a high price product saying it was hard to develope,
you wouldn't put on your webside that it was left over junk from a useless
airforce project, would you ? again, if its true !
but thats the point for most positive or negatives on hans... they are all IFs !


max, i am not a fan of hitting the steering wheel !

it will and should only happen in the worst cases. maybe a case hard enough
to be close to bsf. otherwise your belts are dangerously useless.
people walked away from really big head ons before hans,
with a knock on the head. today you might or might not have a broken
collar bone useing hans. choice should be up to the person in the car !
while you should be allowed to choose the hans route, i should be allowed
to look for a compfy steering wheel to hit...

i am sorry if it sounds like making up stories.
i am just trying to put my expierience in context with what i know about the
device. due to it not being hard evidence, it surely might look like useless
fiction.
then again the - he might have sufered bsf without hans in that crash -
party isn't working on anything different than assumptions too.

edited for the usual countless typos. left other misspellings in... ;-(

[johnw]

Carsten,
If you read after one of Sam's many posts I did ask him for any links or evidence. None appeared, and there's nothing to suppport a view that Sam has done any research, let alone a lot.

I did my own, there's plenty around if you choose look with an open mind. Start by reading the stuff on www.hansdevice.com
It's from the developers, but where else would you expect it to come from?

The device was developed after the accident I mentioned. Nothing to do with planes initially, but interesting IF they use them for pilots, I've never seen anything to suggest this.

It was small beer until Daimler-Benz financed the research (initially on behalf of F1.) The FIA took note and mandated them. I don't see the FIA as a body that would leave itself open to litigation.

Of course, you might now suggest that it's all a big conspiracy theory.
It doesn't concern me if you wear one or collect them - Move on

[carsten.meurer]

fully get your point, and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if they
started developement on the basis of an abandoned usaf device or from scratch.

i would also claim to have looked into the device shortly after it was introduce, as at the time i was still in charge of doing most helmets for
mercedes in dtm.
my dad actually was the first german outside of mercedes to be allowed
to fit the old type hans anchors to helmets.
he was briefed by hubert downing, and did all the star v8 helmets.

so we did get a lot of drivers feedback from the word go !

thus we also know that many drivers needed to work round the proper use to
be able to drive as they liked, and what problems weraing it had.

we found solutions for many problems, and did our best to make it work.

we also helped schroth to get into it when they started.

so i guess i do know a fair bit about the whole thing.

thats why i am very positive about the device in cars constructed for
the device, or such being adopted with reasonable investment and no
downfall in safety.

still a not properly integrated hans device will lessen the efficency of well
prooven safety equipement. guess that should be beyond doubt.

also beyond doubt, they showed us research that the device works great in the right environment and at a certain type of crash.

problem is we then get into a really BIG area of possible crashes, in numerous
type of cars, drivers in all types and sizes, in all sort of cars.

i feel there needs to be a very close look for each individual combination
of the above to see if odds are for or against the use of the device !

if i took a old fford onto a superspeedway, i might opt to use a han, as the
chance of a 0-30 deg impact is higher than that of a rolling and sinking into a
graveltrap giving away needed head clearance.
then again in the same car i might rather not wear it at brands indy, for odds
are just opposite.

what frustrates me, is that most seem to see it either white or black !
both views are dangerous !
i feel there is a real need to deal with all the shades of grey in between !

i might add that i personally sure feel that money might have made the dcision for fia even easier than just the ( false ? ) idea of bringing extra safety
to everyone.
also regarding national asn's, i know that some country officials tend to
bring in even stricter rules than the fia askes for, as the eye on a place in the
fia direct. so its good in your cv if you went down a even strickter line...

this is driven more by personal gain than making the sport safer !
or do you think all at the msa work just for the good of the sport ?
i know it surely not like that with the german dmsb ! :-(

thats why i am sad that many racers believe everything that comes from above, without putting it in question before making theire minds up !

[DarrellB]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

.

this is driven more by personal gain than making the sport safer !
or do you think all at the msa work just for the good of the sport ?
i know it surely not like that with the german dmsb ! :-(

Interesting view. How much is is to have a helmet painted? Does it improve the lap times? Does it improve the safety of the helmet? I think I would rather pay for the cost of a HANS than spending money on having a good paint job!

The HANS will not stop all neck injuries but may prevent some lethal ones,in the same way a helmet will not prevent head/brain injuries (especially if you bash it on steering wheel,cockpit, rollcage (note Mika Hakkinen in Oz)) (they also add weight to the neck increasing the chance of the neck injury), and the same way fire retardent overalls will not stop burns these are all mandated to try and limit the amount of fatal injuries.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

i might add that i personally sure feel that money might have made the dcision for fia even easier than just the ( false ? ) idea of bringing extra safety to everyone.

Explain who in the FIA makes money out of the sales of HANS devices please.

[Teletubby]

This thread seems to be getting rather circular! One one side there are those people who seem to be backing the view that HANS is a conspiracy/untested/dangerous, who cannot supply any evidence (other than anecdotal). On the other side are those people (myself included) who believe that the HANS may save a life, who can supply evidence (albeit from the manufacturer and TRL and the FIA). Stuck in the middle are some drivers who seem to be trying the middle ground approach. I have to say that Sam has no credibility as far as I am concerned, if only for the comment that a HANS would have stopped him from moving his head out of the way when he crashed in a rally car into a tree, I am happy to discount the opinion of anybody who has such a loose grip on the laws of physics! Carsten is concerned that the device may not work and is just a cynical way of making money, this from a man whose contribution to motorsport safety is the life saving service that is painting crash helmets, presumably free of charge! Why not ask somebody who is independent for an opinion (as the FIA and TRL seem not be be considered so), how about Dr Terry Trammell? For those who don't know him, he was, together with Dr Steve Olvey, the medical delegate for CART for many years. CART have been using the HANS device for a number of years and if there was a problem it is likely that those guys would have seen it!

[fangio]

Originally Posted by johnw

Explain who in the FIA makes money out of the sales of HANS devices please.

The stickers for the helmets have to be bought from the FIA by the HANS suppliers as far as I know and certainly the latest type of the helmet attachment now carries an FIA approval which is paid for as well.
I had to change mine on one of my helmets, even though the device is exactely the same but it didn't carry the FIA engraving.

[carsten.meurer]

nice touch that we are getting personal...

i do not claim helmet designs to be a need, but many like them.
for some its like a mask to put on when they become super hero,
and go to work more confidently... lowering lap times just like hans
does for a driver who feels safer with a hans ! its a head thing...

i won't sell a helmet i am not confident of just to make money.
that towards the personal ones...

ok, you seem not to get the point i am trying to make, or why do talk champcars again ?

i said several times that in cars build for the device it should be used !
what if not champcars is where it would work ?
the cockpit dimensions, the seatbelt mounts, the roll bar hight and
side head protection all work together there !
AND they have pretty likely the sort of crash hans works in !

i am on about making it mandatory for drivers not so lucky to drive CC,
F1, GP2 , F3 or carbon tub DTM cars. wouldn't concider the ones needing to
race a bmw lucky...

i am talking about the guy in a lotus 61 or a ginetta or a van diemen91 !

not sure why no one seems to get that this is the line i am trying to make clear ! not all cars are the same !


to the money making part...

if you want to have your helmet listed by the fia as hans eligible you need
to have it registered as a manufacturer and pay the fee.
also you pay a fee per helmet sold ( sticker ).

if you want to have your hans device fia approved, you have to pay a fee again. that is for every type of device, depending on weight or angle.
not sure, but would think that a feee per number sold is payable to fia aswell
by manufacturer.
it always was the same for fia uits or cik karting suits.
send a ridicolous amount together with a filled in application form, and a test
report by one of a few legitimate companys, and they will issue you a homologation number. no further service...

and i did not say it was all for the money, but do you really think someone
with the fia was thinking club singgle seaters, or 1100 cc hatchbacks with
a grand years budget when they made the plan to make it mandatory ?
it was just a case of it works for those who it was developed for, now go and have it all !
happy are the ones that can make it work !

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by midgetman

So if go right back to the start of the thread where andy97 (remember him?) was asking for some advice, can I ask some advice from those who are using HANS:

1. Did we decide standard seats OK?

2. What about belts? 3" ones still work?

3. Instructions with the TRS "saloon" belts recommend that the shoulder straps are crossed behind the seat. Does this affect using the HANS?

4. How much, all up, are we budgetting from real-life experience?

5. I can find the seat belt angles. From experience, does angling the belt affect comfort/performance? There is a range given, which is most effective?

6. Denis mentioned not being able to reach bits of his car - is this really because of the HANS or is it just that the belts are done up properly for the first time!!!!???!!!

7. Real life experiences from drivers about belts slipping off? What about sharing a car with non-HANS-wearing drivers - any difficulties at driver change?

I'm asking because the balance of evidence has swung me towards buying one if it can be made to work in my car, but hasn't convinced me on compulsion. I still perceive the BSF risk as small, but I had a sore neck after my last light shunt and I think HANS may help prevent that, stop my head impacting s/wheel (Carsten, I really don't buy your argument here mate, even if the helmet did protect me I'd rather not do that) and generally let me go back to work on Monday morning rather than sit around "recovering".

1. Probably. Some seats might cause comfort problems, most should be OK.

2. Yes, 3" belts are fine.

3. The FIA document details at what shoulder strap length the straps shoud be crossed.

4. £650-£1500 depending on what you already have and how much modification your car needs.

5. If your shoulder straps are at greater than 20 degrees, you shouldn't be wearing a HANS.

6. Yes, to both. The HANS device requires, and allows, the straps to be a lot tighter than you would normally have them. Not a bad thing in itself. However you have have to move the seat to get the correct shoulder strap angles which could hav a knock on effect.

7. See above. If the straps are correctly installed and the belts are tight enough this won't be a problem, at least 99% of time. However, what could happen in any of the million possible combinations of accidents is anyones guess.

[midgetman]

thanks Denis. I've printed your replies out and will have them to hand as I decide for 07.

Max

[Red Baron]

For reference, please see below an extract from 'Appendix L (Drivers Equipment) of the International Sporting Regulations, issued by the FIA.

3.3. Future requirements concerning the obligatory use of head
restraints
Wearing a head restraint approved by the FIA will be mandatory
for all drivers and co-drivers in international events as follows:
- in all FIA championships, trophies, cups and challenges: from
1 January 2008
- in all events entered on the FIA International Sporting
Calendar: from 1 January 2009
An exception is made for historic cars, on board which the wearing
of an FIA-approved head restraint system is recommended.
For other cars in which for technical reasons it is impracticable to
fi t the FIA approved head restraint, it will be possible to apply for
a waiver to the FIA Safety Commission.

The HANS device isn't even going to be mandatory for events on the FIA calendar until 2009. I really can't see it being made mandatory for ALL club racers for a long long time.....if it ever is, which by the way I don't think it should be.


I'm very much pro-HANS, but I can't see why everyone is getting irate about the fact that it is going to be made mandatory for all. Where has anyone read this????

PS: Carsten M; the FIa web site also says that people driving cars that are not comatible with HANS will be able to apply for a waiver should the device become mandatory.

Why all the fuss????

Rosie

PS further more, I've just realised that the FIA regs only refer to a Head Restraint and do not even specify HANS.

SS_Collins - if you can develop your better solution in time perhaps yours could be made mandatory instead

(sorry mods if that is considered to be too personal a statement)

[johnw]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

....and i did not say it was all for the money,

Yes you did, in post #359

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

might add that i personally sure feel that money might have made the dcision for fia even easier ......

Thanks for the FIA money answer. I assume then that similar fees have been payable for FIA approval of pre-HANS helmets, seat belts, extinguisher systems, fire resistant clothing etc. etc.
If so, I can't see that any decision re HANS is remotely profit related, given the small numbers sold.

And as Rosie has pointed out, there is nothing anywhere suggesting the mandating of HANS at a club level.

[carsten.meurer]

well john, as you rightly quote i said that the prospect of more money coming
in, surely made the decision even easier ! not that it was money driven !
if you do not think it thru completely it sounds like a fantastic idea after all !
and you are right, it will bring in sililar funds as all the other safety related
items that need fia homologation. so i think extinguishers do not count to
that...

problem with helmets pre hans was, that an outside testing institution
( snell fountation ) made the most money on motor racing helmets.
hence the idea of introducing mega expensive carbon helmets to f1,
that meet a standart set by fia ( fia 8860 ) and not just snell or dot or bsi.
so in fact hans eligible helmets do add to fia's purse !

i do read the shedules that were given in this thread and in german
publications of the asn that hans will become mandatory in all forms of vehicle racing and rallying.
just like they do with a lot of safety related regulations.

so sorry if i wasn't precise enough !

i do not think there is a conspiracy going on, but i feel that money to
certain channels made decisions a bit faster and favourable, but i fear
that is just common practice today, so nothing unusual.


i have read about the waiver too, and that is what i based my idea of
applying to the fia about, saying i was looking forward to theire reply !
remember ? yours were the two anglo saxons words and advice to go fishing...



still i am wondering why they allow for waivers, rather than strongly recomend
the use of hans device for sub professional level, wherever suitable.
looking forward to see if they ask for a fee along with the application for the
waiver to cover the expenses they will have with them...

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>I assume then that similar fees have been payable for FIA approval ...... fire resistant clothing etc. etc.

Oh yes, H-U-G-E amounts. One homologation fee for every style/model plus a mountain of beaureaucracy. Oh and the application has to be submitted via the ASN (in our case the MSA) who charge a fee as well. Then when the homologations expire (the karting world is very good at this) one pays to re-homologate.

One of the reasons why we didn't homologate our own suit to 8856-2000.

FYI only - back to topic.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by johnw

And as Rosie has pointed out, there is nothing anywhere suggesting the mandating of HANS at a club level.

Please see my post #330
Australia may be a hell of a long way away from you, however, our sporting body is well respected within the glorified realms of power. I can tell you "they" all watch each other, and when one comes out with a ruling, the others often fall into line, usally withing a couple of years.
If you think it will never happen I think you are fooling yourselves, we already have a time table and I am sure the RAC (insert local ASN) will have a timetable within 2 years

[Eddy V]

I've been gone for a few days and it seems all hell broke loose here.

Maybe time for a cooling down period.

RESTRAIN YOURSELFS PLEASE



Okay, okay, I'll get me coat.
Albeit far too warm for that.

[johnw]

Good idea Eddy
I'm off for a week, so best of luck everyone

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

I've been gone for a few days and it seems all hell broke loose here.

Maybe time for a cooling down period.

RESTRAIN YOURSELFS PLEASE



Okay, okay, I'll get me coat.
Albeit far too warm for that.

And you didn't even start it!

[DarrellB]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

ok, you seem not to get the point i am trying to make, or why do talk champcars again ?

i said several times that in cars build for the device it should be used !
what if not champcars is where it would work ?
the cockpit dimensions, the seatbelt mounts, the roll bar hight and
side head protection all work together there !
AND they have pretty likely the sort of crash hans works in !

i am on about making it mandatory for drivers not so lucky to drive CC,
F1, GP2 , F3 or carbon tub DTM cars. wouldn't concider the ones needing to
race a bmw lucky...

i am talking about the guy in a lotus 61 or a ginetta or a van diemen91 !

not sure why no one seems to get that this is the line i am trying to make clear ! not all cars are the same !

At the AMOC meeting at the weekend there were several club drivers using the HANS in cars such as Aston DB4 and 5, Austin Healey Sprite and even a D type Replica. I can't see the reasons why HANS or other approved head and neck restraints can not be used in any typ of car if it has been modified for racing purposes ie suitable seat and belts. I can see no reason why something like a van diemen 91 should have any more problem than a modern single seater.

Carsten you asked if I had a clue what I was talking about. I am not a driver, neither am I a salesperson for HANS but after dealing with drivers in the aftermath of a serious incident it tends to give you an interesting view of the sublect.

I regularly work and train with many experienced motorsport doctors who promote the benefits of using head and neck restraints.

As for using the steering wheel to prevent excessive neck movement- this has potential for causing serious head and brain injuries. The head will come to a sudden stop against the wheel (potentially causing fractures to the skull) while the brain will continue until it strikes the inside of the skull causing potential haemorrhaging. The HANS is designed to decelerate the head gradually within the stretch of the tethers. http://www.northamericanraceparts.co...Hans_Video384K

Detractors of the HANS seem to rely a great deal on hear-say and hypothetical reasoning of potential problems. The pro HANS have much documented evidence from extensive testing. After all the device was designed by a PROFESSOR of Biomechanical Engineering I expect he knows what he is talking about. All major race series around the world are using the HANS and it has backing from the most experienced motorsport medics. PROFESSOR of Neurosurgery Sid Watkins and DR Terry Trammell MD Specialist in Spinal Trauma must have a good reason for backing the use of HANS.

Until something better is invented then the HANS device is seemingly the best device for restaint of the head and neck to prevent lethal spinal injuries.