Brabham BT23

[Andrew Fellowes]

I have had a gracious reply from David Jacobs who would very much like to know where the car is now.

Andrew

[allenbrown]

He's not the only one!

[Andrew Fellowes]

I'm working on it!!

Thought, Glenn Hyatt owned BT28-12 in 1972 (same time as he supposedly owned the ex Erlich EMC).
So is it possible that Hyatt was indeed a previous owner of David Jacobs car in America?

Andrew

[allenbrown]

More on this confusion between BT23-2 and BT23-4. Autosport 1 Nov 1968 says that Scuderia Picchio Rossi "entered an earlier BT23" for Enzo Corti "which turned out to be their ex-works chassis No BT23/4, the car which was occasionally driven by Brambilla before he came over to Ferrari ... and the one that was sent to Tasmania for Denny Hulme to drive after he had crashed his other at Pukekohe".

As BT23-4 was never a works car, this must indicate an ex-works car with the wrong chassis plate on it.

[Chris Townsend]

BT23-4 was used by Hulme in the Tasman of 1968 after he wrecked BT23-5
so could be described as a works car.
BT23-4 [originally a Winkelmann car for Rees, after Hulme to Walter Habbeger and then Bruno Frey, at which point [1969] AS gives chassis number and remarks the "number sometimes ascribed to Corti's car which was given the wrong plate at a rebuild"] AS manages to describe the Picchio Rosso car as 23-4 for about a season before they realise that the plates are switched.

BT23-2 was the Picchio Rosso car, originally works car for Hulme and Gardner in 1967; chassis given as BT23-4 AS 18.4.69 Given as BT23-2 MN 17.7.69 and earlier]

Chris

[allenbrown]

Another puzzle is that Perrot's BT23-3 is consistently referred to as ex-Winkelmann - both in Autosport and in Speed World International.

[allenbrown]

It's almost as if Winkelmann had BT23-3 (to Perrot) and BT23-4 (to Habegger) while the works had BT23-2 (Hulme's car; the replacement Tasman car; then to Corti with the wrong plate on it) and BT23-5 (Gardner's car, wrecked by Hulme at Tasman).

In many ways, this makes more sense that Hulme ignoring the works cars and taking a Winkelmann car to Tasman instead.

[Andrew Fellowes]

A/S June 21 1968 p.8

Hockenheim Rhine Cup
Walter Habegger's Valvoline Racing Brabham was one of the BT23C's produced at the end of 1967.

? Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

which may be answered by this note I have of Corti's car as having been rebuilt as the BT23C prototype. That would more likely have been BT23-2 rather than BT23-4.

So when did the chassis plate swap take place?

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

BT23-2,RF6, FVA 7012, M.R.D. Hulme , then apparently to Walter Habegger , but then borrowed/rented back by Hulme to finish the Tasman with after his big accident in BT23-5 in early 1968, thence back to Europe to Scuderia Picchio Rosso [ Enzo Corti ] carries chassis number 23-4 scratched on chassis .
1969 Enzo Corti .
1970 Vittorio Brambilla.
Bryan.

[Andrew Fellowes]

1969 A/S April 18, p.8
...the slow German driver Werner Lindermann (Montan Racing) having his ex Mitter BT23 No.9 and the Italian Enzo Corti BT23 No.4 which used to be driven by the Swiss Walter Habegger.

It would seem both of these are incorrect?


The Church Farm Racing BT23C-9 of Bell, Hart, Westbury, Williams is advertised by Derek Bell in Autosport in 1968 Dec 15, and then 1969 Jan 3, Jan 10 and March 21.
I haven no idea as to what happened next, anyone know?

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

True or false?
Manfred Mohr .... will be driving a Formula 2 this season. ... the BT23 which he is due to drive will be loaned to him by Swiss entrant, Gerard Pillor.
A/S 1969 June 13th p.5 & 6

[allenbrown]

The are numerous instances of BT23-7 being called BT23-9 by Autosport so I assume it wore the wrong plate (unless we've got BT23-7 and BT23-9 the wrong way round).

We know Corti's BT23-2 wore the identity of BT23-4.

As well as reporting whatever plate happened to be on a car, Autosport would also make its own mistakes from time to time. For example, I'm looking at the 23 Aug 1970 Enna report and it says Cullen's car was BT23C-10 (instead of 11). In fact, BT23C-10 was at Snetterton with Rod Pickering that day.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Thanks Allen, yes I've just come across a couple of 7 & 9 switches and also Corti being the ex Habegger BT23 which as they were owned concurrently is quite an achievement.


Garry Simkin tells me he was not involved with BT23C-16
he has also given me an interesting amendment for BT23C-7

1969 Roly Levis, Baron Robertson, crashed by Levis (in Robertson's ownership), rebuilt by Robertson with new chassis. Original chassis rebuilt as FF by Phil Harris and subsequently raced in NZ by Harris at the same time as Roberston was racing BT23C-7.
The FF chassis sold to Martin Smith in UK c.1990 and restored to BT23C spec, then to Bobby Rahal, then to Justin Segel, to Tom Claridge.
2008 Ted Wentz

which begs the question, what happened to the re-chassised BT23C-7 that Baron Robertson had? I need to talk to Phil Harris I think! Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

23C-1. I think this car was raced as F3 by Stiller. Several reports describe it as ex Troberg/Stiller when McRae uses it.
Chris

Harry Stiller -who does read these forums by the way, has confirmed that he was loaned a works BT23C in 1968 which he thinks was BT23C-1.

-my thanks to Andrew Gifford for letting me know.

[Chris Townsend]

Andrew, actually I went back recently and read the relevant Autosport reports. Harry Stiller raced two BT23s
The first car only appears on two occasions: At Oulton 23.9.67 AS says he used 'the now F3 engined BT23 of David Bridges' [1.40.8] but used the regular Lucas BT21 in the race [by this time his other BT21 had been sold to Jean Allen Racing for Bev Bond. At Brands 29.10.67 AS says he races the 'ex David Bridges' BT23 that appeared at Oulton; also has his usual 21
So is this BT23-9?

In 1968 Harry used a variety of cars, starting with Peter Fattorini's BT21, then from mid May what seems to be BT23C-1

Chris

[Andrew Fellowes]

Autosport , May 26th. 1977. page 42.

Eike Wellhausen, former E-type racer now has a Brabham BT23C , originally built for an American who had intended installing a Chevy V8 . It has never raced however , and Wellhausen turned up at Croft on Sunday with a 3-litre Cosworth unit.

There is a photo of the car and driver , complete with wings etc.

Bryan

Is that a BT23?
Andrew

[Bryan Miller]

Can't see any long trailing front top wishbone pickups on the chassis , but it isn't a really clear photo , best guess is a BT21 series car.

[Andrew Fellowes]

my thoughts too.

A/S 1978 Jan 19th p.50 BT23C for sale Benburb 204
(which is County Tyrone, N Ireland)

I'm guessing BT23C-11

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Andrew, actually I went back recently and read the relevant Autosport reports. Harry Stiller raced two BT23s
The first car only appears on two occasions: At Oulton 23.9.67 AS says he used 'the now F3 engined BT23 of David Bridges' [1.40.8] but used the regular Lucas BT21 in the race [by this time his other BT21 had been sold to Jean Allen Racing for Bev Bond. At Brands 29.10.67 AS says he races the 'ex David Bridges' BT23 that appeared at Oulton; also has his usual 21
So is this BT23-9?

In 1968 Harry used a variety of cars, starting with Peter Fattorini's BT21, then from mid May what seems to be BT23C-1

Chris

I am puzzled by BT23-9. It appears in practice at Brands Hatch for the 28 August race but Bridges/Redman continue to use the Lola for the rest of the F2 season. Next potential sighting is when Frank Williams advertises a BT23 "used this season" (AS 13 Oct 1967 p641). Then Stiller tries it at Oulton Park on Saturday 21 Oct 1967 (not 23 Sep as Chris has it above). As it's called "the now F3-engined Brabham BT23 of David Bridges", I'd be confident this is BT23-9 again. Then Williams enters it for Stiller at Brands 29 Oct 1967 which ties it together nicely. By Brands on 26 Nov, it had gone again, Stiller having no car available as his BT21 had been sold to Bev Bond.

But what then? Where does it go next?

[Chris Townsend]

Apologies for getting date wrong, that race is indeed 21 Oct in my records!
BTW of Stiller's TWO BT21s the car that went to Jean Allen Racing was sold first, before 21 Oct, and the second car, chassis 12, used more often by Lucas, and by Lanfranchi earlier in the season before Stiller left MRS, later went to Beuttler, debuting at Brands 26.11.67 in his hands.

In contradiction to Harry's recent comments that chassis 12 was his championship winning car, AS 5.1.68 pp.22-23 says
Stiller used two BT21s to win Leston "the one he used most is now owned by Jean Allen Racing and driven by Bev Bond"

Any'ow that properly belongs on B21 thread. Where does BT23-9 go after Stiller - Dave Webster with a t/c in the back for FB in USA?

Chris

[tedwentz]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

Thanks Allen, yes I've just come across a couple of 7 & 9 switches and also Corti being the ex Habegger BT23 which as they were owned concurrently is quite an achievement.


Garry Simkin tells me he was not involved with BT23C-16
he has also given me an interesting amendment for BT23C-7

1969 Roly Levis, Baron Robertson, crashed by Levis (in Robertson's ownership), rebuilt by Robertson with new chassis. Original chassis rebuilt as FF by Phil Harris and subsequently raced in NZ by Harris at the same time as Roberston was racing BT23C-7.
The FF chassis sold to Martin Smith in UK c.1990 and restored to BT23C spec, then to Bobby Rahal, then to Justin Segel, to Tom Claridge.
2008 Ted Wentz

which begs the question, what happened to the re-chassised BT23C-7 that Baron Robertson had? I need to talk to Phil Harris I think! Andrew

According to Phil a new chasiss was sent to NZ from the UK to rebuild the wrecked 23C-7. The new chassis came with BT23C-17 stamped on the number plate. Thus 23C-17 was created from parts of 23C-7. Phil subsequently took the original 23C-7 chassis, repaired it and built up a Formula Ford. Upon returning to the UK the car was brought back to it's original F2 specification. Phil will be at the Revival in a few weeks.

I raced BT23C-7 a couple of weeks ago at the SVRA Thunderbolt event. The car ran pretty well in the qualifying sessions, but had really bad fuel starvation due to a misbehaving flap valve during the qualifying race. During the morning warm up the next day a rear lower wishbone broke from internal corrosion and sent me pirouetting off into the weeds. No damage other than to underwear.
Right now Wayne Mitchell (the ex F3 Brabham racer) is making a new set of wishbones and we just got the FVA back from Marcovicci-Wenz. Next stop, VIR at the end of the month. We've got a really good group of Vintage F2/FB racers over here and some pretty quick guys. If anybody is interested I'll post some updates.

Ted Wentz

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by tedwentz

According to Phil a new chasiss was sent to NZ from the UK to rebuild the wrecked 23C-7. The new chassis came with BT23C-17 stamped on the number plate. Thus 23C-17 was created from parts of 23C-7. Phil subsequently took the original 23C-7 chassis, repaired it and built up a Formula Ford. Upon returning to the UK the car was brought back to it's original F2 specification. Phil will be at the Revival in a few weeks.

Ted Wentz

David McKinney did say he thought #17 had gone to NZ but had been destroyed in a fire, Ted could you ask Phil if that is right?

Many thanks, Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

The are numerous instances of BT23-7 being called BT23-9 by Autosport so I assume it wore the wrong plate (unless we've got BT23-7 and BT23-9 the wrong way round).

I do wonder about the chassis plate swaps, surely highly improbable. There is no consistency in either Autosports accuracy or error -a far more likely place of confusion.

Andrew

[allenbrown]

Motoring News also calls the ex-Mitter car BT23-9 in 1969 so, in the same way as the ex-Guthrie BT30 is later called BT30-7, there must have been some reason for this. It is too frequent to be a mistake, typo or typesetting issue. Maybe not the wrong plate but maybe a RF/AM number being confused for a chassis number? Or a team using an old carnet?

Given the timing of Mitter's car's arrival (April), it makes more sense that it would be BT23-7 than BT23-9. The last two cars, 8 and 9, don't appear until early October and late August.

If nothing else, it's a useful reminder that chassis numbers quoted in magazines, even if seen more than once, are not necessarily a reliable guide.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Motoring News also calls the ex-Mitter car BT23-9 in 1969 so, in the same way as the ex-Guthrie BT30 is later called BT30-7, there must have been some reason for this. It is too frequent to be a mistake, typo or typesetting issue. Maybe not the wrong plate but maybe a RF/AM number being confused for a chassis number? Or a team using an old carnet?

Given the timing of Mitter's car's arrival (April), it makes more sense that it would be BT23-7 than BT23-9. The last two cars, 8 and 9, don't appear until early October and late August.

If nothing else, it's a useful reminder that chassis numbers quoted in magazines, even if seen more than once, are not necessarily a reliable guide.

Indeed, it makes sense to 'triangulate' sources, as my old history tutor used to tell me. So try and find as many period sources as possible, that aren't therefore quoting each other [so discount American magazines who are probably using the same reporter as is writing for a Euro mag, when talking about Euro races].
I've just done this exercise with Autosprint's season summary compared to Autosport and Motoring News, for 1971. Illuminating, mainly because the Autosprint chart is clearly based on a limited number of observations [mainly the Italian races I'd guess] and a lot of extrapolations, and there are a few misprints.
But what it also highlights are Autosport's misprints and assumptions; where Autosprint differs from AS it usually agrees with Motoring News, except where it's making an assumption of its own!

Historiographical note then:
Autosport: More misprints and assumptions than we thought; reporter tended to rely on notes from previous races rather than checking plates or asking. Poor with Italian and Swiss teams.
Motoring News: Reliable, and detailed observations from asking questions. Some misprints. For 1971 at least remarkably good observations of Tecnos, which would have been difficult, since the number's on the frame not a plate, and would have needed some Italian
Autosprint: Wayward, though I am only working from season summary, not race reports, and that in itself is a possible source of transcription error.
Too many assumptions with British teams such as Rondel. [Wolleck assumed to use only one BT36 because that's what they saw him in at Vallelunga or somewhere, when he ran three]

Chris