The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am very jealous

Was there any carbon fibre used at the back of the car? According to specification the gearbox casing is aluminium, but perhaps the bell housing is carbon fibre, like on the Dome S102, the Peugeot 908, etc.

Could you tell whether the engine has direct injection? Were there high pressure fuel lines mounted directly on the cilinder head, like on the Audi R8 FSI engine? Did Toyota give any additional information about the engine?

Did you notice anything special on the rear suspension? Does Toyota use an inerter on the TS030? Racecar Engineering has a very small picture of the TF110 inerter:

Sadly the bigger pictures of the TF110 are no longer freely available...

Well, the usage of Carbon in the rear was very limited, i remember seeing much more shiny Aluminium than "normal".
With the Direct Injection, i cannot quite remember. But i don't remember seeing as many wires as on the R8 engine.
But again, the engine, gearbox and suspension actually reminded me very much about the F1 setup with everything mounted low and to the center of the car. Much more neatly than what we've seen on other LMP's.
This also corresponds with what we where told about the F1 carry over to the LMP

[msd76]

The one thing about the Toyota’s that I did find surprizing was they lack of range. Considering the size of the fuel tank advantage they had I thought they would easy match the Audi’s if not gone longer per stint. Apart from that they did a great job first year out.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Are you talking about the same Toyota Racing organization who was contacted by Speed Channel, Eurosport and Motors TV during the LM race week to schedule appointments, only to jump on 9 out of 10 of them, and never said anything when asked about their car issues, while Audi openly showed the rubber debris from the #2 Audi that put it in the garage with handling issues until it was removed?

Are you talking about the same Toyota Racing organization that invited journalists to their (almost) first test at Paul Ricard, that announces their test sessions (and their location) beforehand and provides a short report afterwards, that allows their drivers to tweet during these tests, that is very honest about their struggles (e.g., explaining how the tub was damaged and why it toke so long to produce a new one), ...

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Meanwhile, Toyota has discouraged people from taking photos of the rear of their cars when the rear decks were off and keep people out of the garage when the #7 was being worked on, even resorting to the Peugeot tactic of using bodywork to shield the car while being repaired. You didn't see Audi do that, and I think that the R18 is technically more exciting, hybrid stuff aside, than the Toyota, which if it wasn't for that hybrid system, seems to be fairly conventional based on spec sheets.

If Audi is that open about their car, please provide me pictures of the new pull rod rear suspension and the new carbon fibre gearbox mounted in the car? There are many pictures for the 2012 R18 where the suspension and the engine are covered with a blanket.

[Simmi]

Some pretty staggering leaps being made here. It's one thing to be 'open' and honest with the press and the fans, but that does NOT mean a team like Toyota or Audi are obliged to detail every nut and bolt of their car and their innermost workings.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It seems to me that Toyota is giving their drivers much more freedom, there's an interesting interview with Alex Wurz on Motorsport-Total where he openly talks about their struggles etc.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/..._12062006.html indeed contains some nice inside information.

Wurz wanted to attack from the start, but there was a minor software problem with the car and the reset toke 3 laps. By then, the Audis had pulled a gap.

He also explains that because Audi was pushing at the beginning, they struggle during the second and third stint with the same tires. The Toyota does not suffer from this problem because it is much more gentle on the tires.

Michelin could not produce tires especially for Toyota, so they are using the Peugeot tire specification, which is designed for the high diesel torque. So the tire compounds are not (yet) optimized for the TS030. So expect some future improvements in this area...

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So because they give a small number of very selected people some perks that makes them open and inviting? I don't think so...

And the "Fan Area", give me a break, that's simply a marketing device..I'm talking about honesty here.

The fact is, you never get anything out of Audi people aside from their usual PR speak while the Toyota guys are open and honest with everybody. Toyota's Ron Leupen was in the Eurosport booth twice and was talking shockingly honest about their programme, their expectations, their limitations etc.

Even Audi's former drivers like Marco Werner are obviously instructed to give little to no insight on the current programme. I really like Marco but you could tell that he was not allowed to talk openly about the current programme on TV.

It seems to me that Toyota is giving their drivers much more freedom, there's an interesting interview with Alex Wurz on Motorsport-Total where he openly talks about their struggles etc. You'll never hear something like that from Audi's drivers, it's always the usual PR speak and people are growing tired of it. The comments on German websites are full of mockery for Audi and their constant press talk...it's the same with the Nürburgring 24hrs, Audi spends such an insane amount of money for marketing that it becomes highly annoying for everyone who isn't a die-hard Audi fan.

That's what I meant by Toyota will win over many fans. Because that kind of honesty and openness is something everybody can enjoy, not just a lucky few.

Man those grapes are sour this morning.....

I won't attack the poster as that's not allowed, but from my perspective, the content is rubbish. I can't imagine a huge team being more open and inviting that Audi have been to us over the last 2 years.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Some pretty staggering leaps being made here. It's one thing to be 'open' and honest with the press and the fans, but that does NOT mean a team like Toyota or Audi are obliged to detail every nut and bolt of their car and their innermost workings.

Of course it doesn't. Let's at least be realistic.....

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Man those grapes are sour this morning.....

I won't attack the poster as that's not allowed, but from my perspective, the content is rubbish. I can't imagine a huge team being more open and inviting that Audi have been to us over the last 2 years.



Of course it doesn't. Let's at least be realistic.....

I think both teams are open en friendly to the public in their own ways.

[Aysedasi]

It's a shame of course that Dr. Ullrich didn't invite me to do a few laps in the R18 when I made my visit on Wednesday but I guess they were a bit busy......

[CTD]

Originally Posted by NelisB

I think both teams are open en friendly to the public in their own ways.

A very good way to put it, yes

In any way, lets not become spoiler brats just wanting more and more. The levels of openess we've seen from both teams is amazing!
Lets not forget we are talking about two top teams running the newest technology in a race where new competitors are entering, who'm are hungry to get all the information possible.
Besides, the fact that these teams take time and effort to give the fans (including us) special experinces (pit visits and lounge entrance) is amazing, as its normally an experince reserved for Sponsors who pay big bucks to the teams.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It's a shame of course that Dr. Ullrich didn't invite me to do a few laps in the R18 when I made my visit on Wednesday but I guess they were a bit busy......

Im going to writte Dr. Ullrich a very angry letter because he didn't allow you!

[Peat]

Wait til next June when Toyota bring their A-game. Watch Audi clam-up and put thier race faces on. This year seemed like a bit of a jolly for them.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Peat

Wait til next June when Toyota bring their A-game. Watch Audi clam-up and put thier race faces on. This year seemed like a bit of a jolly for them.

Im not sure Audi feels that way.
I've never seen soo many troubles and errors from Audi, like i did this year!

[Peat]

Exactly, they weren't concentrating - as such.

[the.cosmic.pope]

This Audi being cold hearted and sterile thing doesn't wash with me, especially after this weekend. We had a fantastic time down at Audi hospitality and talked in great length with Allan McNish, Tom Kristensen, Howden Haynes, Ralf Juttner and Martin Pass. We were also allowed to crawl all over an R18 Quattro race car, including inside (not the model which was on display with the Audi touring cars in the paddock area). I'm not sure what else they could've done to make our experience at Le Mans better than that.

[Peat]

Indeed, also don't forget that alot of the technical staff are contractors from Brackley and not 'ze germans'.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So because they give a small number of very selected people some perks that makes them open and inviting? I don't think so...

And the "Fan Area", give me a break, that's simply a marketing device..I'm talking about honesty here.

The fact is, you never get anything out of Audi people aside from their usual PR speak while the Toyota guys are open and honest with everybody. Toyota's Ron Leupen was in the Eurosport booth twice and was talking shockingly honest about their programme, their expectations, their limitations etc.

Even Audi's former drivers like Marco Werner are obviously instructed to give little to no insight on the current programme. I really like Marco but you could tell that he was not allowed to talk openly about the current programme on TV.

It seems to me that Toyota is giving their drivers much more freedom, there's an interesting interview with Alex Wurz on Motorsport-Total where he openly talks about their struggles etc. You'll never hear something like that from Audi's drivers, it's always the usual PR speak and people are growing tired of it. The comments on German websites are full of mockery for Audi and their constant press talk...it's the same with the Nürburgring 24hrs, Audi spends such an insane amount of money for marketing that it becomes highly annoying for everyone who isn't a die-hard Audi fan.

That's what I meant by Toyota will win over many fans. Because that kind of honesty and openness is something everybody can enjoy, not just a lucky few.

All fair comment. That's your perception of Audi (and clearly others, from what you say) and you're entitled to your opinion. Your opinion just happens to be contrary to my own, based on my own experiences when coming into contact with Audi.

Toyota, yes, they will make many, many friends. And yes, there is a perception that they are being very honest and talking very openly about their programme and on track experiences. It is indeed a very refreshing approach. But, they are a much smaller operation than that of Audi, less cumbersome and with a shorter chain of command. That helps. Perhaps the guys at Audi are having to operate with one hand tied behind their back (if you know what I mean). But, don't think for one minute that Toyota are telling us anything more than what they want us to know.

[TF110]

No team will or has to. But we should move on. How about the driver topic? Two cars a possibility at Fuji. Who's in/out? I wonder if they'll test anymore this year, and will Anthony still make the hill climb @Goodwood? I hope he's fit enough by then. Would really like to see him @Silverstone as well.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by TF110

and will Anthony still make the hill climb @Goodwood? I hope he's fit enough by then.

No chance, he's in a back brace for the next couple of weeks.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

How about the driver topic? Two cars a possibility at Fuji. Who's in/out?

Sarrazin is back to Starworks for the rest of the WEC.

[gwyllion]

Finally, I have found two pictures of the TS030 with the rear cover removed:


source: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...30_hybrid.html

With all the gold shielding the engine is hardly visible. It is impossible to confirm that the engine has direct fuel injection

The exhaust looks F1 inspired because first it goes forward.

The radiators are not positioned vertically, but under an angle also like on F1 cars. Of course Toyota has more room next to the engine compared to Audi, because they do not have intercoolers and the radiators can be smaller for a V8 petrol engine.

The rear suspension seems a conventional torsion bar suspension. I can not tell whether the third spring element acts an inerter.

[gwyllion]

The article in which I found the two pictures, mentions that the ablity to run an electric power in the pitlane is an advantage:

Unlike the Audi R18 e-tron, which uses its hybrid set up to power the front wheels, the Toyotas are RWD only and can move under full electric power. And because electric motors have all their torque available at 0 rpm, the TS030 was able to hit the 60 km/h pit speed in about half a second.

I'd been watching the GT1 and GT2 cars and even some of the LMP2 entries struggle with their racing clutches to get out of the pits. Toyota figures this method is good for two seconds a pit stop. Not to oversell it, but in racing terms that's a humungous advantage.

source: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...30_hybrid.html

[Aysedasi]

2 seconds a pit stop is very interesting.......

[gwyllion]

I found another article that includes pictures from the TS030 engine:



source: http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/m...le-mans-effort

Sadly, the pictures are very tiny.

The article mentions that Toyota wanted to design a new engine, but they went for an evolution of the Super GT engine. Next year, however, they might build a new engine.

From the very beginning TMG knew the car would be a hybrid. Engineers wrestled with the idea of building a totally new engine for the car, but settled on using a heavily re-worked version of their Super GT 3.4-liter V-8, a slightly updated version of the unit that is sold to Rebellion Racing.

The article repeats the list of advantages of the rear wheel hybrid system, that Toyota also gives.

Three benefits became clear while testing in France one month before the race. 1) There would be no bulky drivetrain components at the aerodynamically sensitive front end of the car. 2) Weight distribution would be more-or-less within “standard” prototype specification. 3) Finally, the shared-drive setup (outputs of both combustion and electric motors acting on one axle) meant that the hybrid system could be activated at any speed, unlike the Audis that could send power to the front wheels only at speeds above 75 mpg. A corollary to this? The TS030 was able to silently motor away from pitstops using pure electric power.

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I found another article that includes pictures from the TS030 engine:

Same engine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtTVXhBo4E

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Same engine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtTVXhBo4E

Yes. I would believe so.