The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[the.cosmic.pope]

Originally Posted by Peat

Indeed, also don't forget that alot of the technical staff are contractors from Brackley and not 'ze germans'.

Other than Juttner, the only German we met was a security man who was quite harsh about getting near the car, until the Audi PR people allowed us to (and then he was dismissed for an hour or so). Overall it was extremely open and happy, not 1 single person was unwilling to speak with us. We met a bunch of other PR guys and gals, I just didn't know there names.

One of the best experiences I've ever had with a team - especially compared with Ganassi and Krohn in 2006 at Daytona, who were just rude.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

2 seconds a pit stop is very interesting.......

I've become cautiously optimistic about Toyota's pace for next year.

Thanks to members in this thread I have learned Toyota is going to build a better, more purpose based engine for the TS030 instead of the slightly upgraded Super GT unit they have now. Hopefully this improves the car's fuel economy to 12 laps, while increasing power and reliability.

I've also learned the TS030 is running on harder, Peugeot 908 tires, instead of softer tires designed specifically for the car's lower torque.

And from watching footage from the race Toyota's hybrid system is far superior to Audi's. When Lapierre was battling with Treluyer the Toyota passed the Audi quite easily exiting two slow speed corners, Mulsanne and Arnage. Also Toyota has had no problem leading the top speed category.

And now they have 2 seconds a pit stop advantage because they can use their hybrid system below 75mph unlike Audi.

So I am cautiously optimistic they can be faster then Audi next year, maybe even the 3 seconds I would like to see so they can overcome any time spent in the pits.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Holt

I've become cautiously optimistic about Toyota's pace for next year.

Thanks to members in this thread I have learned Toyota is going to build a better, more purpose based engine for the TS030 instead of the slightly upgraded Super GT unit they have now. Hopefully this improves the car's fuel economy to 12 laps, while increasing power and reliability.

I've also learned the TS030 is running on harder, Peugeot 908 tires, instead of softer tires designed specifically for the car's lower torque.

And from watching footage from the race Toyota's hybrid system is far superior to Audi's. When Lapierre was battling with Treluyer the Toyota passed the Audi quite easily exiting two slow speed corners, Mulsanne and Arnage. Also Toyota has had no problem leading the top speed category.

And now they have 2 seconds a pit stop advantage because they can use their hybrid system below 75mph unlike Audi.

So I am cautiously optimistic they can be faster then Audi next year, maybe even the 3 seconds I would like to see so they can overcome any time spent in the pits.

hopefully it will be a V10 next year than the V8.on another note, A Really really dumb question here, is the gold on the engine cover actual gold?

[Articus]

^ Its just some space-age thermal resistant foil that happens to be colored gold but its not gold. Gold would melt away.


So that squashes all the thoughts that this was some all new engine. It probably does not have DFI like we thought either. I hate to run in the complete other direction but could there still be more performance yet to be had with a purpose built engine. OR will they wait till 2014. What would be the point of building an all new engine almost 3 straight years in a row.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Articus

^ Its just some space-age thermal resistant foil that happens to be colored gold but its not gold. Gold would melt away.


So that squashes all the thoughts that this was some all new engine. It probably does not have DFI like we thought either. I hate to run in the complete other direction but could there still be more performance yet to be had with a purpose built engine. OR will they wait till 2014. What would be the point of building an all new engine almost 3 straight years in a row.

It is hard to predict what they will do due to Toyota staff being impartial as to whether they will go beyond 2014. I reckon they could either go all guns blazing next year with a new engine et al in case they have to cut the program short and will have something to show for their effort. (unlike the GT-One project-for the most part anyway) Or they could play the long game and plan ahead for 2014. Or they could do a bit of both, it remains a mystery for now.

[TF110]

V10? They're only allowed a V8 for next year, correct? Maybe the engine is SuperGT based, but still relatively new, but not completely new? There definitely would be gains from a brand new purpose built engine. Think this all makes sense and lends to the 'learning year' 2012 was suppose to be. You know there will be gains and improvements, but it'll be interesting to see how much and what Audi will do in the mean time to upgrade the R18. This is shaping up to be mega the rest of the year and next.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

V10? They're only allowed a V8 for next year, correct?

In LMP1 there is not limitation on the number of cilinders. See article 5 of Technical Regulations LMP 2012.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Finally, I have found two pictures of the TS030 with the rear cover removed:


source: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...30_hybrid.html

With all the gold shielding the engine is hardly visible. It is impossible to confirm that the engine has direct fuel injection

The exhaust looks F1 inspired because first it goes forward.

The radiators are not positioned vertically, but under an angle also like on F1 cars. Of course Toyota has more room next to the engine compared to Audi, because they do not have intercoolers and the radiators can be smaller for a V8 petrol engine.

The rear suspension seems a conventional torsion bar suspension. I can not tell whether the third spring element acts an inerter.

You can't tell if it has DFI because of that huge airbox it has because of it being an NA engine--that's one advantage with Audi's FSI and TDI engines, the top of the engine is uncluttered (until the R18 that is). I wouldn't be surprised if all the DFI stuff on the Toyota engine is hidden under the airbox.

Interesting to note that even the valve covers seem to have been shrink-wrapped in that gold foil, but given how close the exhaust pipes are to it, that's not really a huge surprise.

And I'm surprised that the engine, contrary to early remarks, seems to share much of it's basic design with the Super GT/Formula Nippon engine, and is hence similar, at least in some ways, to the TMG customer engines that Rebellion use.

Also, it goes back to why Toyota were so hesitant to let anyone near the back of the car when the engine cover was off--it looks very conventional as far as the gearbox casing and suspension set up, which isn't really surprising, as TMG have been very up front about those items, and of course, we can't really see anything with the electronics back there.

All and all, hybrid system aside, the TS030 seems to be a lot like the Pug: fairly conventional and sticking with the tried and true. However, I don't think that TMG would design a whole new engine for one year unless they think that it would fit with the 2014 regs, which if they stick to the 3.4 V8 format, those engines seem to be big time disadvantaged under those regs. A revised engine is very likely, as that's the process of evolution--Audi modified their engine this year in a similar manner--but I think that a total redesign is out of the question for just one year.

Also interesting is the very tight packaging of the exhaust system. It seems to be extremely close to the engines valve covers/cylinder heads and the transmission casing, as well as to the radiator/oil cooler for the header pipes.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In LMP1 there is not limitation on the number of cilinders. See article 5 of Technical Regulations LMP 2012.

But V10 with only 3.4L doesn't sound like the best concept... Except sound-wise.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

2 seconds a pit stop is very interesting.......

That is what Toyota claims. The timing data from Le Mans shows that Audi did slightly faster pitstops. This is the average duration of fuel only pitstops.

• Audi #1: 55.8 sec
• Audi #2: 56.8 sec
• Audi #3: 57.7 sec
• Audi #4: 57.4 sec
• Toyota #7: 57.4 sec
• Toyota #8: 57.6 sec

Of course this could also be result of a difference in fuel flow for diesel and petrol. Note that the e-tron quattro stops are shorter because the tank is 2 liter smaller.

Toyota seriously needs to improve their tyre/driver changes

• Wurz -> Lapierre: 1:26.690
• Lapierre -> Lapierre: 1:37.037
• Nakajima -> Wurz: 1:39.184
• Sarrazin -> Buemi: 1:34.164
• Buemi -> Davidson: 1:36.803

Most Audi driver change/tyre changes are sub 1:25 and the fastest even 1:18.861 (Lotterer -> Fassler).

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And I'm surprised that the engine, contrary to early remarks, seems to share much of it's basic design with the Super GT/Formula Nippon engine, and is hence similar, at least in some ways, to the TMG customer engines that Rebellion use.

I am not surprised because the rumor went around in Sebring. See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...85#post3057885

Originally Posted by chernaudi

However, I don't think that TMG would design a whole new engine for one year unless they think that it would fit with the 2014 regs, which if they stick to the 3.4 V8 format, those engines seem to be big time disadvantaged under those regs.

The YR34 H-SV engine that Yoshimasa Hayashi and YGK are designed for 2014, is a NA 3.4 V6 with exhaust energy recovery.

So the current or a new V8 engine could be a valid starting point for 2014.

[chernaudi]

Only if it can be teamed with a very effective energy recovery system. The high-revving V8s will consume as much fuel as a bigger engine because it has to run more RPM to achieve the same power.

With the "unlimited" engine rules, I think that a fairly small capacity forced induction engine teamed with a very good hybrid system would be a very good bet, while NA engines are limited unless they get some very good hybrid systems on them, which isn't favorable to privateers at all.

And it does seem that something did play out that was expected, that Toyota need to work on their pitstop times, because they lost a fair bit of time to Audi it seems there, though pitstop times were roughly equal for fuel only stops.

[gwyllion]

Yes, it will probably be necessary to increase the displacement of their V8 engine a bit, in order to improve its fuel consumption for 2014; e.g. from 3.4 to 4.0-4.5 liter. However, it might be possible to do that with minimal changes to the external dimensions of the engine.

Look at Zytek they used to have a 3.4 V8 for LMP2, a 4.0 V8 for LMP1 and later a 4.5 V8 for LMP1. All these engines are based on the same architecture.

[Bentley03]

The TS030 engine does not use Direct Injection - it uses Port Injection.

[XJR14/WSC95]

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-new...e?artid=144284

This link was posted in the Audi R18 thread of the P.U.R.E 2014 f1 engine. I think this would be a good option for the TS030, and we're is this engine being built... Why TMG head quarters of course. Perhaps thay could use a 2l variable turbo DFI version for next year before pumping it out to say 3l and dropping the variable veins for 2014.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

The TS030 engine does not use Direct Injection - it uses Port Injection.

hi fella - do you mind me asking how you know this???....I must admit it does not surprise me as this engine was designed by all the ex F1 folk and they never used DI in F1, so a "stick to what you know" design process......I must say that exhaust system has some serious diameter primary pipes.........I didnt know there was no limit on cylinders I thought it was 8 max, interesting!

[Aysedasi]

I suspect from the horse's mouth, so to speak.........

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

hi fella - do you mind me asking how you know this???

Hi mate - as Ayse suggested, the information did indeed come straight from the horse's mouth.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Whilst on the topic of Toyota, and first hand information, a rather nice man in the paddock at the weekend told me the sudden change from Red to Blue was the suits in Cologne considered red unlucky after the F1 exploits. Of course that looks stupid in PR, so they called it hybrid blue and went with that. But there is some information I was given first hand.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

Whilst on the topic of Toyota, and first hand information, a rather nice man in the paddock at the weekend told me the sudden change from Red to Blue was the suits in Cologne considered red unlucky after the F1 exploits. Of course that looks stupid in PR, so they called it hybrid blue and went with that. But there is some information I was given first hand.

I like the blue color more, but superstition...

[FIRE]

Toyota should be red.

BTW interesting stuff to read in this topic.

[deggis]

This story is about Toyota possibly returning to WRC in 2014, but it has interesting other bits (quotes from Kinosh!ta)...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/177991/t...o-wrc-in-2014/

Under the current financial situation, the WRC project may require Toyota to drop out of the world endurance championship (which includes the 24-hour Le Mans).

“Nobody knows the economical situation in the future, if we have very good situation maybe we can do both (WRC and Le Mans) but if we have a bad situation we can not (do) even a single project, you never know.”

This may not come at such a big shock, since Kinosh!ta is currently disappointed with the ‘unfair’ state of regulations affecting petrol cars in comparison to diesel vehicles for 2014 world endurance championship.

“I think we can do only one project at this moment. The future is unknown but we need to prepare the rally project, because we don’t know the 2014 LeMan because I am very unhappy with the 2014 LeMan regulations”

Kinosh!ta was adamant that the 2014 LeMan regulations regarding fuel efficiency targets for petrol and diesel were totally unfair for Toyota (and advantageous for Audi’s diesel engines).

He said that unless fuel efficiency targets are changed, Toyota couldn’t confirm a start position at LeMans in 2014 (even though the company has previously committed to a three-year project starting this year).

Sounds like typical bargaining, but still surprised at the 2014 comments... almost sounds like this is misunderstanding and Kinosh!ta instead refers to the current situation.

Couldn't find these quotes from any other site. Writing it "LeMan" doesn't exactly raise the credibility of this story, but I guess the quotes are still real.

[Gingers4Justice]

If these comments are true, then I think it's exactly that - bargaining.

While there are two different technologies, one manufacturer running one technology will always try to get an advantage over the other. The "Give us more pace or we'll leave for another series" trick will be used multiple times.

Both heart and head suggests Toyota will stick around the WEC for a while.

The ACO needs to be careful, this stuff caused two manufacturers to quit the WTCC.

[alexkiller8]

i don't know if the ts030 uses the direct injection or not; but if it uses... well TMG should work a lot to optimize the fuel consumaption, because if we see the pit stops statistics the ts030 was the lmp1 with the worst fuel efficency, consuming more than the judd v8 (for consuming more, i mean the sting length. Is useless to say that the high fuel consume could also depend by the try of toyota to gain more power from the engine).
The 458 GTC engine uses the DI too and is the gte car with the best fuel efficency, far beyond all the others! the gte with the longest stints and with an avarage consume of around 5.5L per lap at le mans.

[Articus]

The combo of low revving and DI in the Ferrari makes it pretty tought to beat.