The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

This story is about Toyota possibly returning to WRC in 2014, but it has interesting other bits (quotes from Kinosh!ta)...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/177991/t...o-wrc-in-2014/


Sounds like typical bargaining, but still surprised at the 2014 comments... almost sounds like this is misunderstanding and Kinosh!ta instead refers to the current situation.

Couldn't find these quotes from any other site. Writing it "LeMan" doesn't exactly raise the credibility of this story, but I guess the quotes are still real.

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2012...k-to-wrc-30907 tells the same story. This article has even stronger statements from Kinoshlta regarding the 2014 rules.

Though TMG had previously committed to Le Mans for three years, which would take it to the end of 2014, Mr Kinoshlta said that new rules and Audi have made it impossible to compete.

"The future is unknown but we need to prepare the rally project because I don’t know about the year 2014 Le Mans, because I'm very unhappy with the Le Mans 2014 regulations. So I nearly flip over the table in meetings with FIA and Audi so they knew why I am so unhappy with the new regulations."

And what is it that has angered Mr Kinoshlta so much that he would threaten to pull out of the world's most famous endurance race? Fuel efficiency issues.

[TF110]

ACO/FIA aren't just going to screw over Toyota, but themselves if they think any other manufacturer would find this favorable for them (non-diesel at least).

[gwyllion]

Apparently Sarrazin drove at Le Mans with a fractured vertebrae

Starworks had initially looked at placing Stephane Sarrazin, its third driver in the six-hour long FIA WEC races, in the seat. However, Baron said the ex-Peugeot star was discovered to have sustained fractured vertebrae from his biking accident at the Le Mans Test Day weekend, which has ruled him out of racing for the next month.

source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...s-for-6h-glen/

[Lasse]

Crazy stuff!

[Creep89]

This is really uncool in my opinion. Which doctor gave him the permission to race?

[Lasse]

I don't dare think about what injuries he would have sustained, had he been the one that went flying.

[alexkiller8]

in 2012 you're not a cool driver, if you don't drive with some broken vertebrae

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

in 2012 you're not a cool driver, if you don't drive with some broken vertebrae

or if you dont crash your ferrari

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Apparently Sarrazin drove at Le Mans with a fractured vertebrae
source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...s-for-6h-glen/

He's down to demo the TS030 in place of Ant' at Goodwood this weekend!

[TF110]

Yeah, turns out his injuries aren't as severe (or are/were they?) as Anthony's if they're having him run the Toyota up at Goodwood.

[Articus]

Or that Toyota had no clue about Sarrazin's broken vertabrae ala Mark Webber style...

Its hard for an employer to find out about if Sarrazin dint want them to know because it doesnt require surgery. It needs to heal on its own.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

The #7 Toyota is at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. We spoke with somebody from the German Toyota outfit, and he came up with an interesting titbit, namely that Michelin had been unable to prepare tyres specifically for the Toyota. In stead they have been running Peugeot spec tyres sofar.

The drivers also mentioned this. See post #3653 and post #3730.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As for Silverstone, if Toyota are gonna be stuck with Peugeot's tires, we have to remember that I don't think that Audi or Peugeot ever did more than double stint in the shorter races, and I don't know if they can get an advantage out of it--they seemed in certain conditions to be struggling with those diesel tires.

And even if TMG get their own tires, that can be a doubled edged sword--the newer tires might be grippier, but would also probably wear out faster as it's built around their car's performance specs, not the Audi or Peugeot diesel cars'.

New Michelins that are better optimized for the TS030, will also be an improvement. This will mean better performance for the same tyre wear, the same performance for better tyre wear or even both.

[TF110]

Will they have new tires for Silverstone? Or will they be the current compound? I haven't seen anything talking about it.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by TF110

Will they have new tires for Silverstone? Or will they be the current compound? I haven't seen anything talking about it.

If they couldn't get some ready for the Biggest Endurance race of the year, then it seems less than likely they will have had time to stir their vat of voodoo chemicals to match what the Toyo needs. I suspect, due to the 'rushed' nature of the program, a full on tire test session has not yet been achieved. To truly get a matched set of tires, the team and Michelin would probably have to spend some extended testing time together.

dh

[TF110]

I think the crash may have led to this. They did quite a job on the Peugeot tires though. From some of the comments here it seemed like they were going to have new tires for the upcoming races.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

If they couldn't get some ready for the Biggest Endurance race of the year, then it seems less than likely they will have had time to stir their vat of voodoo chemicals to match what the Toyo needs. I suspect, due to the 'rushed' nature of the program, a full on tire test session has not yet been achieved. To truly get a matched set of tires, the team and Michelin would probably have to spend some extended testing time together.

dh

It was mentioned that Toyota would be using the "summer break" to sort this issue out.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by TF110

Yeah, turns out his injuries aren't as severe (or are/were they?) as Anthony's if they're having him run the Toyota up at Goodwood.

Obviously it goes in degrees, he told me it was only found much later after his bicycle accident although bad, it wasn't quite in the same 'G' catagory!

I used Ant's pass to go to Goodwood to meet his team and have a look at the #7 car for the first time...The team were very friendly and showed me around the car which was great!
I was also very lucky to be there at the exact moment that 'Mr Toyota' himself made a flying visit...he was introduced to me...(me a normal, humble enthusiast) I remembered to bow, and thanked him and the team for flying Ant' home.

It was fascinating to see (but not hear) the TS030 go to the start line on electric power! This car is light years ahead of any other racing car, (that includes F1) and with due respect to Audi their system doesn't come close!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Obviously it goes in degrees, he told me it was only found much later after his bicycle accident although bad, it wasn't quite in the same 'G' catagory!

I used Ant's pass to go to Goodwood to meet his team and have a look at the #7 car for the first time...The team were very friendly and showed me around the car which was great!
I was also very lucky to be there at the exact moment that 'Mr Toyota' himself made a flying visit...he was introduced to me...(me a normal, humble enthusiast) I remembered to bow, and thanked him and the team for flying Ant' home.

It was fascinating to see (but not hear) the TS030 go to the start line on electric power! This car is light years ahead of any other racing car, (that includes F1) and with due respect to Audi their system doesn't come close!

Great to hear confirmation of the Toyota teams kindness .

And what an amazing opportunity you got yourself there!

[CTD]

Something just struck me, which i find a bit weird about the Toyota's tire choice.

Why did Toyota choose the Peugeot designed tire instead of the Rebellion!?
Shouldn't the Rebellion tire suit the petrol engine better than the Peugeot one, which is designed for the diesel torque?.

Only reason i can think of is that the extra power supplied by the Hybrid system would overload the normal Petrol tire.

[chernaudi]

I thought that the Rebellion tires were the same as the "basic" diesel tire unless Rebellion Racing is paying Michelin to develop special tires for them, which I doubt. Yes, I know that Rebellion runs the wider front tires, but we have to remember that the Toyota not only has that hybrid system, but it produces more downforce than the Lola chassis, too.

[alexkiller8]

i think that doesnt exist a "rebellion" compound! ok rebellion surely is the richest private team, but not so much to have a custom compound from michelin. If you see the car (the early bodykit most of all), is clear that toyota was heavily influenced by puegeot! then think also that 4 drivers on 6 have driven a peugeot in the past, because of this was easier for them to adapt soon with an already known kind of tyres.
Another aspect is that both 908HDi and 908 had a weight ratio of almost 60% on rear! surely the ts030 has a similiar weight ratio because of hybrid on the rear wheels (instead of audi) because of this they needed a compound that was already successfully used in a similiar structural car like 908.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

i think that doesnt exist a "rebellion" compound! ok rebellion surely is the richest private team, but not so much to have a custom compound from michelin. If you see the car (the early bodykit most of all), is clear that toyota was heavily influenced by puegeot! then think also that 4 drivers on 6 have driven a peugeot in the past, because of this was easier for them to adapt soon with an already known kind of tyres.
Another aspect is that both 908HDi and 908 had a weight ratio of almost 60% on rear! surely the ts030 has a similiar weight ratio because of hybrid on the rear wheels (instead of audi) because of this they needed a compound that was already successfully used in a similiar structural car like 908.

The capacitor system is the weighty bit. The motor inside the gear casing isn't that heavy. Toyota complain that the weight being too far forward from the capacitor gives too much understeer. Initial impressions of the car indicated a bit of understeer because of the weight balance that they are working on. I think your jumping the gun aboit trying to make a similarity between the Peugeot and the Toyota but they are two very very different cars in terms of weight balance, engine, aero etc.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I thought that the Rebellion tires were the same as the "basic" diesel tire unless Rebellion Racing is paying Michelin to develop special tires for them, which I doubt. Yes, I know that Rebellion runs the wider front tires, but we have to remember that the Toyota not only has that hybrid system, but it produces more downforce than the Lola chassis, too.

If the Rebellion and every other "wide front" tire setup is the same as the diesels, why the need to highlight that it's "Peugeots" tires they are using?.

But yes, the downforce is a very likely case.

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

i think that doesnt exist a "rebellion" compound! ok rebellion surely is the richest private team, but not so much to have a custom compound from michelin. If you see the car (the early bodykit most of all), is clear that toyota was heavily influenced by puegeot! then think also that 4 drivers on 6 have driven a peugeot in the past, because of this was easier for them to adapt soon with an already known kind of tyres.
Another aspect is that both 908HDi and 908 had a weight ratio of almost 60% on rear! surely the ts030 has a similiar weight ratio because of hybrid on the rear wheels (instead of audi) because of this they needed a compound that was already successfully used in a similiar structural car like 908.

As Rebellion was the first petrol car (besides the Acura) to run wide fronts, the petrol wide fronts has probably been designed with great help from Lola (Rebellion).
The Toyota TS030 have not been influenced by the Peugeot in any way. The TS030 was designed heavily with TMG's knowledge from F1. Besides, the Peugeot wasn't that aerodynamic, it was always the engine which "carried" the car. (Of course this is compared to Audi which is much better aerodynamic). I asked Toyota at the pit visit how much of Oreca's Peugeot experience and knowledge they had used, and got the answer almost none.
The weight balance of the Toyota is likely 50/50.
You miss the point of the Peugeot compound being designed for the Diesel torque instead of Petrol.

[chernaudi]

It's been admitted by TMG personnel that they are using the old Pug LMP1 tires similar to the 2011 spec because TMG have yet to develop their own tires with Michelin.

As far as I know, there were 3 basic "wide front" tire specs, the Audi R18 spec, the Peugeot 908 spec, and the "basic" spec, which is for customer teams (Rebellion and, this year, Pescarolo) and AMR, which isn't tailored to a particular car like Audi's and Peugeot's tires were last year, but are a basic broad spec based primarily on a basic LMP1 diesel tire that Audi and Peugeot derived their specs from, so it's basically a "detuned" LMP1 diesel tire that's perhaps a compromise between what a diesel needs and what a gasoline car needs--Michelin, like most companies, won't build something unless there's a demand for it or someone pays for it. After all, they've virtually pulled out of LMP2 as a tire maker because of a lack of demand and only maybe a couple of teams right now (Dempsey and Loeb?) are willing to special order their tires.

I think that lack of development time and areo considerations (the Toyota TS030 was heavily influenced by the Pug in that area) were the main motivators, and just like with Audi now focusing on the R18 e-tron quattro, Toyota will probably use this time between LM and Silverstone to try and develop tires more suited to their car.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by CTD

You miss the point of the Peugeot compound being designed for the Diesel torque instead of Petrol.

With the torque from the hybrid I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually pretty close to a diesel characteristic. No idea how close, but probably the petrol car that has the best chance of making a diesel compound work.