The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Japanese Samurai]

Minoru Hayashi (president of Dome) tweeted about the Le Mans participation of Toyota.
He says that it is difficult to break the "iron rule (of Japanese manufacturer)" of constructing a racing car with foreign (non Japanese) technology.
http://twitter.com/#!/dome_hayashi/s...49503303737344

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Minoru Hayashi (president of Dome) tweeted about the Le Mans participation of Toyota.
He says that it is difficult to break the "iron rule (of Japanese manufacturer)" of constructing a racing car with foreign (non Japanese) technology.
http://twitter.com/#!/dome_hayashi/s...49503303737344

So Dome is not a part of the project?

[Japanese Samurai]

Truth remains a mystery.
It is because he will not tell the truth, even if Dome has participated in this project.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Minoru Hayashi (president of Dome) tweeted about the Le Mans participation of Toyota.
He says that it is difficult to break the "iron rule (of Japanese manufacturer)" of constructing a racing car with foreign (non Japanese) technology.
http://twitter.com/#!/dome_hayashi/s...49503303737344

What a strange statement. Nissan and Toyota's GTP efforts met much success with "foreign technology." And by that measure, Mazda's Le Mans win was with such technology as well.

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

What a strange statement. Nissan and Toyota's GTP efforts met much success with "foreign technology." And by that measure, Mazda's Le Mans win was with such technology as well.

Surely, the projects were successful, thanks to foreign technology.
However, didn't Japanese motor sports industry decline?
Isn't Japanese manufacturers' racing project "ODA" to foreign constructors?
This is his opinion. But He is not antiforeignism.
He just believes Japanese motorsports technology.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

So Dome is not a part of the project?

Why would they need Dome?

TMG has all the facilities that are needed: two wind tunnels, CFD department, composites department, test rigs, driving simulator, etc. Just look at their website.

They could even do the engine and the hybrid system, if they wanted, given their experience with F1 KERS and more recently the TMG EV P001. Of course, Toyota Japan probably has more experience with the development of hybrid road cars and the hybrid Supra HV-R.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Why would they need Dome?

TMG has all the facilities that are needed: two wind tunnels, CFD department, composites department, test rigs, driving simulator, etc. Just look at their website.

They could even do the engine and the hybrid system, if they wanted, given their experience with F1 KERS and more recently the TMG EV P001. Of course, Toyota Japan probably has more experience with the development of hybrid road cars and the hybrid Supra HV-R.

Yes but as Japanese Samurai points out, having a Japanese thumbprint on the car would be a huge boost, also, Dome has loads of experience with LMP cars which can be very beneficial for Toyota.
Let's just look how much Toyota lost out on with the TS020, which could very well be because of lack of Le Mans experience.
The same with Peugeot, they choose not to team up with Pescarolo, and this resulted in 2 years with failure at Le Mans because they didn't have the insight that Pescarolo had.

[Francesco]

Dome isn't a good solution to get "race experience"... Dome never raced with their own team, they always sold the cars to privateers and even with the S102 most of the team was from a holland F3 team if i remember correctly.

they should give KERS and some benefits to Rebellion and use some of their experience and ... maybe ... 1 or 2 of their drivers too

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

The same with Peugeot, they choose not to team up with Pescarolo, and this resulted in 2 years with failure at Le Mans because they didn't have the insight that Pescarolo had.

The step from rally cars to prototype racing (Peugeot) is bigger than from F1 to LMP1 (Toyota).

If you use Wirth Research as an indication, Toyota should manage fine to build a splendid LMP1 car. The WR designed Virgin F1 car sucks, while the WR designed LMP2 cars are the benchmark in their class.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The step from rally cars to prototype racing (Peugeot) is bigger than from F1 to LMP1 (Toyota).

If you use Wirth Research as an indication, Toyota should manage fine to build a splendid LMP1 car. The WR designed Virgin F1 car sucks, while the WR designed LMP2 cars are the benchmark in their class.

First of, WR are not Wirth Research, and to avoid any confusion, let's only use WR for Welter Racing. (We have had this discussion before).

The step from F1 to Le Mans and Le Mans to F1 is difficult as there is a lot of elements you have to take into your design in one category, which you don't have to take into the other. ei. Wirth Research build the F1 car with "too much" endurance in mind, and therefor not performing as well as others. (making elements in the engine too thick)
When going from F1 to Le Mans, you don't have any experience with developing a car which limits rubber pickup (Peugeot had problems with this), the whole endurance aspect is something you really don't deal with in F1.

The Acura Lmp2 was based on a reliable chassis, where Wirth Research could focus speed improvements.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

First of, WR are not Wirth Research, and to avoid any confusion, let's only use WR for Welter Racing. (We have had this discussion before).

Yes, I know, but WR is slowing becoming a synonym for Wirth Research in current LMP racing.

Originally Posted by CTD

When going from F1 to Le Mans, you don't have any experience with developing a car which limits rubber pickup (Peugeot had problems with this), the whole endurance aspect is something you really don't deal with in F1.

Don't forgot that TMG designed the Toyota GT-One. Have a look at http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/heritage.html

Originally Posted by CTD

The Acura Lmp2 was based on a reliable chassis, where Wirth Research could focus speed improvements.

A "reliable chassis" is one way of describing the Courage LC75. I prefer the famous quote of Nick Wirth: "The Courage test was so memorable because the basic car porpoised so badly it nearly leaped off its mounts and we could have lost it down the tunnel!"

[Acid09]

I think we can agree on the simple fact that staff and facilities that are able to build a new F1 car each year are easily enough to build your own LMP1 without outside help.

It's the same with Pescarolo and Peugeot a few years back, the factories don't need the help of privateers for full-blown works efforts.

[ss_collins]

Theres a lot of speculation on this thread which I hope to clear up tomorrow. I have spent time over the last couple of days with both Toyota and Dome, but as it stands no Dome has no involvement in this project.

I need to go back through the tapes to see if I understand everything fully before I put anything up.

[gwyllion]

Sam, can you confirm what Mike is saying about the engine being a further development of the RV8KLM (see here)? So still a NA V8 instead of turbocharged engine?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

What a strange statement.

Just plain frustration... it's undersandable, after Toyota presence within Dome with the 102S, and the preliminary testes in Fuji with a Dome car.

[gwyllion]

Maybe it is time for the moderators to rename the topic and drop Dome from the title

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Sam, can you confirm what Mike is saying about the engine being a further development of the RV8KLM (see here)? So still a NA V8 instead of turbocharged engine?

I hope that detail is correct if only to avoid a petrol turbo vs NA equivallency debate!

[gwyllion]

The initial rumor (mentioned in the beginning of this thread) talked about a turbo engine:

It is unclear which engine the new prototype uses, but some sources suggest it is not related to the 3.4-liter V8 supplied to the customer Rebellion Racing team. One possibility is that is powered by an all-new, 2.0-liter turbocharged engine.

source: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110617/ALMS/110619866

[TF110]

Did the Supra HVR use the SuperGT engine? Or did it have it's own design? We may be able to take some clues from that project for some type of indication of what may be possible in relation to the engine. I also believe they will unveil the car at the Tokyo Motor Show?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

I hope that detail is correct if only to avoid a petrol turbo vs NA equivallency debate!

You bring up an interesting point actually. The only petrol turbos that have run this year in LMPs are the AMR I6, the AER MZR-R, and the grandfathered AER P32T. All of those engines were not very good it would seem, but I guess there are reasons outside equivalence that could explain those troubles. Maybe the early trouble of the HPD LMP2 V6 are relevant, but I don't know. Is there any reason to think the regs are wrong for turbo P1 engines?

[Félix]

Originally Posted by TF110

Did the Supra HVR use the SuperGT engine? Or did it have it's own design? We may be able to take some clues from that project for some type of indication of what may be possible in relation to the engine. I also believe they will unveil the car at the Tokyo Motor Show?

The Supra used 3 engines in JGTC-Super GT over 15 years: 2.1L I4 (from previous LM/IMSA/WRC projects), Lexus V8 (Grand-Am engine) and 3.4 (new rules, FNippon/Indy engine). I'm not sure which one they used for the endurance car but I think I read it was the small turbo engine.

[TF110]

From online the engine was said to be a 3UZ-FE with electric motors in the front wheels plus a rear axle electric motor. They said in total the car made over 700hp. I just wondered the specifics and if it can last 24hours in a heavier Supra SGT car, it could be a basis for their LMP engine. The difference is it was a 4.5liter V8 whereas the current engine can be 3.4liter.

[Félix]

Before we get rid of Dome in the thread title, I'd like to know who was behind the previous Le Mans efforts. Here's what I think I know:
-The TS-020 GT-One in 1998-99 was with TTE (who was in charge of WRC until 1999). They're in Köln, Germany. They tested for F1 with the GT-One and McNish at the wheel in 2000, became TMG, failed miserably in F1 and since offered consultancy and a customer V8 to Rebellion.
-The Group C cars, starting from 1985 (?) were raced by TOM'S. They're originally Japanese, but that's where I get confused. They always competed in Japanese F3, building both chassis and engines in the 90s.
-The TS-010 project in 1992-93 was done in Europe I'm pretty sure, by a structure called TOM'S GB. I don't know how close they were to the Japanese TOM'S/Toyota, but they were also behind a stillborn F1 project around that time, and there's the 1996 LMP1. (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/tomlumpy.html) They operated out of what became rtn (now Lotus Racing?)
-The 88C (and LM Toyotas from that era) I'm pretty sure was a Dome (Japan) car. I'm not sure what the 94C was, but around the mid-nineties Dome got involved with Honda for the NSX JGTC project and have been closer to them since then. Apart from a loaned factory driver (?), there was no link with Toyota for the S102 project.

So, who was TOM'S and what happened in the early 90s with them?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Félix

Before we get rid of Dome in the thread title, I'd like to know who was behind the previous Le Mans efforts. Here's what I think I know:
-The TS-020 GT-One in 1998-99 was with TTE (who was in charge of WRC until 1999). They're in Köln, Germany. They tested for F1 with the GT-One and McNish at the wheel in 2000, became TMG, failed miserably in F1 and since offered consultancy and a customer V8 to Rebellion.
-The Group C cars, starting from 1985 (?) were raced by TOM'S. They're originally Japanese, but that's where I get confused. They always competed in Japanese F3, building both chassis and engines in the 90s.
-The TS-010 project in 1992-93 was done in Europe I'm pretty sure, by a structure called TOM'S GB. I don't know how close they were to the Japanese TOM'S/Toyota, but they were also behind a stillborn F1 project around that time, and there's the 1996 LMP1. (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/tomlumpy.html) They operated out of what became rtn (now Lotus Racing?)
-The 88C (and LM Toyotas from that era) I'm pretty sure was a Dome (Japan) car. I'm not sure what the 94C was, but around the mid-nineties Dome got involved with Honda for the NSX JGTC project and have been closer to them since then. Apart from a loaned factory driver (?), there was no link with Toyota for the S102 project.

So, who was TOM'S and what happened in the early 90s with them?

TOMS became RTN. TTE became TMG.

[TF110]

I wouldn't say their F1 project failed miserably either. They had numerous podiums, no wins of course, but that did have a capable car. Trulli, Glock, Ralf; those are not synonymous with championship caliper teams. Ralf may be an exception when he was with BMW Williams, but Montoya showed him the way in all but one season. If there was no link from Toyota to the DOME, why does the thread say DOME Toyota testing?