Toyota/Rebellion Racing - Le Mans/ILMC/LMS - 2011 (merged)

[kneesaregood]

Originally Posted by Félix

Rebellion have never been exactly concerned with spending as little as possible. Running prototypes in 2 classes, a generous number of private tests and now owning 4 (FOUR) Lola chassis doesn't exactly scream "I need money from my engine supplier". In fact, just being given engines or at least certainly not paying as much for them as they did as Judd customers probably pays for the 3 extra fly-aways.

I now Rebellion run that team on a tight budget, but with a clever strategy and a well financed backer they have managed to grow each year.

They didnt come in throwing money around at the start they started at the start and have grown a little more each year. The money they dont spend is replace by alot of hard work, very good staff and 4 very fast drivers

[GT6]

After the wonderful welcome we at ten-tenths received from the rebellion team on our pit visit a couple of years ago I will be watching and hoping that the combination of toyota and the most proffesional of teams will produce the kind of results in 2011 that they deserve. The works teams had better keep an eye on them but perhaps i would rather they did not see them coming.

[Japanese Samurai]

AUTOSPORT(print edition) reported that Toyota were testing Hybrid-prototype car in Japan.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

AUTOSPORT(print edition) reported that Toyota were testing Hybrid-prototype car in Japan.

Could that mean the project is more advanced that we thought?

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by Mal

Could that mean the project is more advanced that we thought?

I don't know.
But AUTOSPORT says that there is information that Toyota is testing the hybrid prototype in December, 2010.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

I don't know.
But AUTOSPORT says that there is information that Toyota is testing the hybrid prototype in December, 2010.

When was that reported? Can't find that in yesterday's issue...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Simmi

When was that reported? Can't find that in yesterday's issue...

Japanese Autosport probably, completely different to the Haymarket one.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Japanese Autosport probably, completely different to the Haymarket one.

Ahh right. Well let's hope Japanese Autosport are correct!

[TF110]

I couldn't find the article, perhaps a link Samurai?

[Japanese Samurai]

Yes, it is Japanese AUTOSPORT article.
Print edition only

[TF110]

Ahh, that's why I couldn't find it. Any more details?

[Japanese Samurai]

It is a trivial article that now is the time for Toyota to return to Le Mans.
An objective fact has only the content that "Toyota is testing hybrid prototype in Japan" among articles over 2 pages.

[courageous]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Japanese Autosport ... completely different to the Haymarket one.

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

a trivial article... An objective fact has only the content that "Toyota is testing hybrid prototype in Japan" among articles over 2 pages.

I'll leave the punchline for somebody else

[kurski]

Strenghened team & new engine for Rebellion

[gwyllion]

Some information (including pictures) on the Toyota V8 for Rebellion: http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-6092.html

The engine designation is RV8KLM and it produces more than 500 bhp.

[knighty]

good find! - there is a similar article on DSC - convenientley translated!.......I think it needed more than compression ratio tweeks to make it an effective LMP1 engine.........I'm betting the cam timing needed a drastic change, typically a high revving engine will run alot of overlap between the inlet closing and exhaust valve opening events, this has proven to cause a big loss of power in a restricted engine, whereby exhaust gas gets dragged inside the inlet system due to the big depression in the air box caused by the restrictors.........I suspect the oil consumption needed re-assesing too.........I seem to remember this engine is also the old Toyota-IRL motor, which I'm sure is a finger-follower valve actuation design, which will be ideal for an air restricted LMP engine........looks the part I must say........it will be powerful, but it will not have a torque curve worth comparing to the turbo-gasoline or turbo-diesel motors from AML, Audi or Pug......therefore I suspect this type of engine will limit Rebellions aero package......but I'm happy to be proven wrong!

[Tim the Grey]

Blimey, 3400cc? That is TINY, compared to the 3600 of a Judd, and 4500 from Nissan.

Presumably they all make sense in their own way, but it's still a lot of sheer displacement to give away?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Blimey, 3400cc? That is TINY, compared to the 3600 of a Judd, and 4500 from Nissan.

Presumably they all make sense in their own way, but it's still a lot of sheer displacement to give away?

Well it's LMP1 so it's limited to 3.4, LMP2 engines may be larger but they're choked by restrictors.

[dj4monie]

Fact -

RML's HPD Powered Lola was the fastest in terms of terminal speed at Lemans over 190mph (I believe 195mph during qualifying). It was faster at the fastest points of the circuit than the Wirth/HPD cars.

Since this is an LMP1 chassis, its safe to assume the "reins" will be taken off the engine, despite the term "restriction" being used, the "hole" used by the engine is likely larger than LMP2's counterpart in 2010.

The new regulations like I thought have for now, reduced power. I wouldn't be shocked if pole for most races is around what Strakka or Highcroft were doing last year.

By 2012 they'll be back to about where they were. Mostly making it up in the Porsche Curves.

I don't think torque is the issue, as I said for N/A cars and small displacement turbo cars, the key is to make it up in the turns. The diesel cars IF close enough too, will rocket past you once it hits the sweet spot of its torque range. With hybrid powertrains, looking at the notes left by all the Porsche 911 GT3R Hybrid drivers, they mash it coming out of the turn, I would say this is what happens in diesel cars as well. Also Yvan Muller recently said his 1.6L Turbo WTCC Cruze has similar driving characteristics to his SEAT Turbo-Diesel.

Meaning I think the ACO has actually struck a nice balance. A hybrid-petrol cars should be able to accelerate with a turbo-diesel. But a N/A 3.4L car will have less weight, bring its power to weight ratio closer to that of a diesel.

The problem I see for Rebellion is getting the current Lola chassis down to min weight. I'm thinking this car could look quite different than the standard Lola chassis.

I also believe this is why Aston Martin is rumored to be going the 2.0L Turbo V6 route because it will give them the low to mid-range grunt an N/A engine lacks.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Blimey, 3400cc? That is TINY, compared to the 3600 of a Judd, and 4500 from Nissan.

Presumably they all make sense in their own way, but it's still a lot of sheer displacement to give away?

Hi Tim - correct, but its not apples-apples comparison between these engines........the LMP1 Toyota lump is running a different restrictor strategy to the LMP2 3.6 Judd and 4.5 NISMO........talking in terms of a twin restrictors the 3.4L Toyota must run a pair of 30.6mm jobbies........the 3.6L Judd HK 2 x 29.6mm.......the 4.5L NISMO 2 x 28.3.......I think the net result will be the Toyota lump is about 40-50BHP-ish more powerful, possibly a tad more.

[JAG]

As stated earlier in the thread P1's will run restrictors similar to those used by P2's back in 2005, that should put them close to 570-580bhp if not more.

In 2010 it was said P2 cars had more like 480-500bhp after yearly restrictor cuts.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by knighty

good find! - there is a similar article on DSC - convenientley translated!.......I think it needed more than compression ratio tweeks to make it an effective LMP1 engine.........I'm betting the cam timing needed a drastic change, typically a high revving engine will run alot of overlap between the inlet closing and exhaust valve opening events, this has proven to cause a big loss of power in a restricted engine, whereby exhaust gas gets dragged inside the inlet system due to the big depression in the air box caused by the restrictors.........I suspect the oil consumption needed re-assesing too.........I seem to remember this engine is also the old Toyota-IRL motor, which I'm sure is a finger-follower valve actuation design, which will be ideal for an air restricted LMP engine........looks the part I must say........it will be powerful, but it will not have a torque curve worth comparing to the turbo-gasoline or turbo-diesel motors from AML, Audi or Pug......therefore I suspect this type of engine will limit Rebellions aero package......but I'm happy to be proven wrong!

I believe Super GT's also use restrictors so the engine should already be well adapted particularly as it's an endurance series.

Given 2011 P1 restrictors are around 15% bigger than those used in 2010 P2's will engines rev higher for more top end power?

[Porsche917K]

Originally Posted by JAG

In 2010 it was said P2 cars had more like 480-500bhp after yearly restrictor cuts.

If that is true how much power were the P2's running in 2008?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Porsche917K

If that is true how much power were the P2's running in 2008?

I'd rather think it depends on what side of the Atlantic they were running. 500 in 2009-2010 must mean probably 520 in 2008 for LMP2s in Europe and 530-540-ish for LMP2s in the ALMS.

[TF110]

This is based off the engine used in SuperGT/Formula Nippon. Unrestricted the engines can produced upwards of 800hp. In SuperGT their restricted quite heavily, but still get around 500hp. I don't see it having any problems. I look forward to it, as I'm an avid Toyota fan. I was waiting for them to get back to LeMans. Maybe they'll find some success and decide to drop some money into the chassis, or make their own.