[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[roderick]

Originally Posted by TF110

Define monumentally off pace. Their fastest lap was only .3 off the best, by Porsche. Consistency can be found with better setups and learning the new car.

If WEC is all about the fastest lap time then sure...but in truth, with all traffic on the road, I dont think toyota can make any difference with their consistency. They picked top speed over acceleration.

[TF110]

They picked a car suited for high top speed and low drag, not so much a formula car with fenders. You can't judge after only one race. Really that should be evident after these past few seasons.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Ok then..How come the Toyota we have seen at Silverstone was so monumentally off pace? Tests are usually planned and teams have an idea and an expectation on where they should be. The drivers were baffled and were clearly frustrated and doesnt give me any confidence that this was some pre-Le Mans Test prep up

Also - Toyota had very good race pace in the second half of the race.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by roderick

with all the traffic

A quick question for anyone.
Are Toyota's cars not as good in traffic as the Audi and Porsche, or is it that Toyota's drivers aren't as ruthless?
At Silverstone, Toyota seemed to be not losing all that much time to the VW Brothers until they started getting deep into traffic.
We all know that Lotterer, for example, has that killer instinct, but do you think it's something that Toyota's drivers are lacking (even a little)?

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

A quick question for anyone.
Are Toyota's cars not as good in traffic as the Audi and Porsche, or is it that Toyota's drivers aren't as ruthless?
At Silverstone, Toyota seemed to be not losing all that much time to the VW Brothers until they started getting deep into traffic.
We all know that Lotterer, for example, has that killer instinct, but do you think it's something that Toyota's drivers are lacking (even a little)?

#5 has probably the best driver lineup in the whole field. It's to do with the car. I am not sure it has to do with traffic, but probably the car is more sensitive to what tire compound is used. As was said previously in the 2nd half of the race the car was much closer on average to the VW group cars. Especially the last stints of Conway and Kobayashi were really quick.

[carbsmith]

The common belief tends to be that if you have less downforce you should lose less in traffic because you lose a lower percentage of grip from turbulence and have more speed to pass on the straights, but actually if you're short on downforce and thus overall grip the inability to maneuver the car as well in traffic can really hurt you. In American open wheel oval racing it's generally the case that cars with less downforce are fast out front but struggle more in traffic because they lack the extra grip to run non-ideal lines well.

Considering Silverstone is a rather fast and wide track, ill suited to low downforce trim to start with, and we saw Porsches and Audis passing lower class cars pretty much anywhere I think it's entirely possible the Toyotas were harder to put in places the other cars could go to make moves.

[TF110]

That's my take on it as well. Plus they aren't fully confident in the new car yet so the setup can definitely improve. It's entirely new except some of the aero philosophy. Audi has a 'new' car, but the engine is a known factor. With Toyota the engine, hybrid, chassis, suspension etc. is brand new. So it's encouraging to see their ultimate pace with that in mind is not far behind at all.

[cokata]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT98duIjuo8

Great onboard footage! You can see a lot of information on the wheel display. Most interesting is that above the battery indicator there is a big FWD and RWD signs that are lit up for most of the lap, but when the hybrid is deployed FWD is completely greyed out while RWD is flashing. I'm guessing that on deployment they use the full power of the front motor, but only part load the rear motor as the rear tires will get there traction oversaturated.

[cokata]

Also going by the FIA graphics the Toyota is going to almost 8k RPM, which means it uses the same RPM as the Porsche, if not a little more. Since they run in the same hybrid class (therefore have the same fuel flow) that would mean that Toyota are running significantly less boost pressure given that they have 20% higher displacement.

[ederss7]

Six-speed gearbox or they still use seven gears?

[cokata]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Six-speed gearbox or they still use seven gears?

Still Seven. Only Audi dropped down to six

[Hiro]

I dont think toyota ever have used 7-speed gears. FIA TS040 onboard graphics showed 2 through 7 last year but that actually was 1 to 6.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by cokata

Also going by the FIA graphics the Toyota is going to almost 8k RPM, which means it uses the same RPM as the Porsche, if not a little more. Since they run in the same hybrid class (therefore have the same fuel flow) that would mean that Toyota are running significantly less boost pressure given that they have 20% higher displacement.

Judging by onboard telemetry, to me toyota and porsche revs up in the range of 7500-8000rpm. Is hard to speculate the exact amount of pressure boost for both cars. Anyway during silverstone race; audi, porsche and toyota picked very different gear ratios...
audi had longer gears with max speed reached in 5th speed, porsche had very short gears with 7th kicked at just 260km/h; watching this onboard, toyota had very short 1-2-3-4, a bit longer 5th and a very long 6th. I guess toyota layout should be the most extreme, with rear wheels powered by ERS and ICE... the rumors about severe wheels spinning surely are close to the truth

[TF110]

Toyota said 7 gears in their PR for the TS050. I remember the TS040 only had 6. Perhaps they only utilized 6 gears in Silverstone because of the low top speed and the new car being tricky to set up. Noticed Kobayashi was hitting about 285kmh at the end of Hangar straight and he upshifts from 5th at about 245kmh.

[gustavobamba]

Why have they only use 6 gear´s at Silverstone if they have a 7 speed gearbox???

http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/team/ts050-hybrid/

Are they hidding something for Le Mans??? I don´t understand it!!

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota said 7 gears in their PR for the TS050. I remember the TS040 only had 6. Perhaps they only utilized 6 gears in Silverstone because of the low top speed and the new car being tricky to set up. Noticed Kobayashi was hitting about 285kmh at the end of Hangar straight and he upshifts from 5th at about 245kmh.

I know that PR, but that is the same as the TS040 PR I saw last year on the same page which said 7 gears as well (maybe they count the back gear). So I doubt they have 7-speed. Anyway 7 gears are not necessarily better than 6 gears especially for these cars with complex system.

[roderick]

PR doesn't have to be correct thus their information is probably wrong and in reality, they have 6 gears.
I'm sure audi and Porsche has few things that aren't quite true

[cokata]

The car is seven speed i am 100% sure. Audi also used only 5 gears, despite having 6.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by cokata

The car is seven speed i am 100% sure. Audi also used only 5 gears, despite having 6.

I am 100% sure they only have 6 speed.
reason? > Because they only used 6 speed last year, yet they said 7 speed.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by roderick

I am 100% sure they only have 6 speed.
reason? > Because they only used 6 speed last year, yet they said 7 speed.

You do know that 1st is usually almost never used out of pitlane, right?

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by cokata

Also going by the FIA graphics the Toyota is going to almost 8k RPM, which means it uses the same RPM as the Porsche, if not a little more. Since they run in the same hybrid class (therefore have the same fuel flow) that would mean that Toyota are running significantly less boost pressure given that they have 20% higher displacement.

I'm thinking at one point where boost is too high there is a need of ERS-H. If we simplify Toyota gets around 50% extra power from twin-turbo, where Porsche gets 85% extra power from mono-turbo.

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by roderick

I am 100% sure they only have 6 speed.
reason? > Because they only used 6 speed last year, yet they said 7 speed.

Why would they lie about it? Maybe everybody lies and Audi has only 5 speed? I don't see any other reason.

What is the point of low 1st gear that is never being used? As we have seen in normal circumstances Toyota gets out of the pit on battery power, that is the only point where low gear could be used. From that thinking they only need engine gears from 60 kmh onward and 1st gear could be geared closer to conventional 2nd gear, for max acceleration from 60 kmh not 0 kmh.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Why would they lie about it? Maybe everybody lies and Audi has only 5 speed? I don't see any other reason.

What is the point of low 1st gear that is never being used? As we have seen in normal circumstances Toyota gets out of the pit on battery power, that is the only point where low gear could be used. From that thinking they only need engine gears from 60 kmh onward and 1st gear could be geared closer to conventional 2nd gear, for max acceleration from 60 kmh not 0 kmh.

Okay, to start off, They do use 1st (youtube video 0:23), also, toyota use Ev mode on the pit lane followed by 1st gear till about 100km/h.
if you dont believe it, your loss.

edit: dont ask my why they lie about it

[cokata]

They used 1st here because for what ever reason they were using very tall gearing for Silverstone. Which means that 1st gear is longer then usual and that would make it usable in very low speed corners.

[J Jay]

They're probably not using sixth for the same reason Audi only used five gears at Silverstone when they have six in their 'box - the sixth is too tall to use.

Is there a limit on the number of different ratios reach team can use this year? Even if there isn't, Silverstone is suitably different from the other tracks to not warrant using shorter gears just for this race.