[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[S griffin]

He’s still got it, but it isn’t looking good compared to Max. But it does show how well Max has done this year. Checo just needs to find another, because if anything happens to Max, they’ll be relying on him.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

His season has indeed imploded, but there's a bit of F1 perspective going on with it. Because you can look at his season and completely flip it around too:

He is currently sitting second in the championship, and is poised to give RBR its first ever 1-2 in the drivers championship - something they didn't manage even at the height of the Vettel dominance. It's safe to say his downfall begun at Monaco, 11 races ago. But in those 11 races, he has extended his second place in the championship 7 times out of the 11. And of the 4 times he didn't, one of them was Singapore where the car was no where.

He's still on for the best result ever for an RBR number 2. For a season that's imploded, helping achieve RBRs best ever result is pretty good.

I think also that Sergio's downfall is that he and Max seem to like a different behaving car. At the beginning of the season Sergio was more comfortable with the car, but as the season has progressed RB have obviously (rightfully) developed and updated the car to suit Max, and the side effect of that has been the car is now much less suited to Sergio's style, and is now a car he is not comfortable with. Either Sergio needs to adapt his style more towards Max's (not easy after over a decade developing and honing the style you have).... or perhaps Red Bull need to get a driver who likes a nervous tail happy car such as that which Max thrives on.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by E.B

I think also that Sergio's downfall is that he and Max seem to like a different behaving car. At the beginning of the season Sergio was more comfortable with the car, but as the season has progressed RB have obviously (rightfully) developed and updated the car to suit Max, and the side effect of that has been the car is now much less suited to Sergio's style, and is now a car he is not comfortable with. Either Sergio needs to adapt his style more towards Max's (not easy after over a decade developing and honing the style you have).... or perhaps Red Bull need to get a driver who likes a nervous tail happy car such as that which Max thrives on.

Trouble is there ain't ever many of those!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by E.B

I think also that Sergio's downfall is that he and Max seem to like a different behaving car. At the beginning of the season Sergio was more comfortable with the car, but as the season has progressed RB have obviously (rightfully) developed and updated the car to suit Max, and the side effect of that has been the car is now much less suited to Sergio's style, and is now a car he is not comfortable with. Either Sergio needs to adapt his style more towards Max's (not easy after over a decade developing and honing the style you have).... or perhaps Red Bull need to get a driver who likes a nervous tail happy car such as that which Max thrives on.

Isn't this the history of modern F1, Chris; so many teams have built their cars around the lead driver which has often severely disadvantaged the second driver. The only time that this didn't affect the second driver was in the case of Mercedes when the pairing was Hamilton and Rosberg.

Well, that's my memory of the past 20-30 years.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Isn't this the history of modern F1, Chris; so many teams have built their cars around the lead driver which has often severely disadvantaged the second driver. The only time that this didn't affect the second driver was in the case of Mercedes when the pairing was Hamilton and Rosberg.

Well, that's my memory of the past 20-30 years.

The Massa-Kimi years at Ferrari was farely similar too.

[chillibowl]

so i am of the opinion of why would anyone design a car around their second driver instead of their first/higher paid/longer tenured driver, but really my primary question is more about Max' driving style and was this year's RB designed around his preferences or is this just a great car and Max has found a way to fully adapt to it?

in the papers, have heard both suggested as possible answers and while the answer is no doubt somewhere in the middle but it also then begs the question...has Newey and co spent the last 30odd years developing cars based on who is doing the driving or is he just following his dark arts to their natural outcome and then its up to the driver to adapt to it?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so i am of the opinion of why would anyone design a car around their second driver instead of their first/higher paid/longer tenured driver, but really my primary question is more about Max' driving style and was this year's RB designed around his preferences or is this just a great car and Max has found a way to fully adapt to it?

in the papers, have heard both suggested as possible answers and while the answer is no doubt somewhere in the middle but it also then begs the question...has Newey and co spent the last 30odd years developing cars based on who is doing the driving or is he just following his dark arts to their natural outcome and then its up to the driver to adapt to it?

Good questions.

While it seems a neutral handling car is hypothetically best, I have always heard that in reality it is one that has a stronger front is really the quickest. I would tend to think that Newey is trying to make the fastest car with the widest operating window he can. And that might end up being one that has a strong front on it? This also seems to be Max's preference? However no doubt this is all an over simplification. It is likely that any driver will have suggestions on improvement for any car and every car they are in likely has some trait somewhere that they don't care for.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

In this Crash.net article from earlier this year, it says Verstappen likes a car with considerable amounts of oversteer or a strong front-end. However, regarding whether the car is designed around Verstappen, former team mate Alex Albon says “I think people get very confused with designing a car around a driver and a driver who’s very very quick and wants a car a certain way.”

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/102399...-very-confused

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I would tend to think that Newey is trying to make the fastest car with the widest operating window he can.

I would tend to think that Newey is trying to make the fastest car full stop.

Accommodating drivers is really not his natural style.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I would tend to think that Newey is trying to make the fastest car full stop.

Sorry, can't agree with that. Very over simplified. I am sure he could make the current car "faster" with some side effects such as... increased tire degradation, porpoising, etc.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I am sure he could make the current car "faster" with some side effects such as... increased tire degradation, porpoising, etc.

But then it wouldn't be faster. I was referring to his traditional no-compromise style.

[broadrun96]

No compromise is NOT faster, it's not compromising on his idea. There's a HUGE difference in those two paths

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

But then it wouldn't be faster. I was referring to his traditional no-compromise style.

Lol, OK.

Richard

[Richard C]

Not sure where to post this because this rumor article contains a lot of stuff.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/24296...this-week.html

With the death of Mateschitz, there is jockeying inside of the Red Bull organization for power and that includes who comes out on top of the motorsports side of things. With it saying Horner wants to run that and he doesn't care for Marko. And apparently Marko's role might be on the chopping block.

And not just in this article, but lots of rumors regarding Perez leaving in Mexico (in which both RBR and Perez have said is not happening). As well as Ricciardo being paired up with Max at RB and Liam Lawson going to AT in 2024.

Who knows if any of this is accurate.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Not sure where to post this because this rumor article contains a lot of stuff.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/24296...this-week.html

With the death of Mateschitz, there is jockeying inside of the Red Bull organization for power and that includes who comes out on top of the motorsports side of things. With it saying Horner wants to run that and he doesn't care for Marko. And apparently Marko's role might be on the chopping block.

And not just in this article, but lots of rumors regarding Perez leaving in Mexico (in which both RBR and Perez have said is not happening). As well as Ricciardo being paired up with Max at RB and Liam Lawson going to AT in 2024.

Who knows if any of this is accurate.

Richard

If RBR say it's not accurate then it is not accurate. The money tree is not as fruitful as it once was.
By that I mean more accountability and less waste.
So unless something huge happens Checo will serve out his contract or they will have to pay it out.
It is in RBR's interests to get Checo back to the form he initially displayed in the opening four months of the season.
Lawson may sit in for DR, YT, or for Checo at any point of the season and only remain there if there is a reason the main driver cant get back into the seat.
But in 2025? Well, anything could happen.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The Massa-Kimi years at Ferrari was farely similar too.

Raikkonen fans complain that car handling was more in favour of Massa than Raikkonen, and that was why "journeyman" Massa was largely able to keep up with Raikkoken during their time at Ferrari with Raikkonen unable to reproduce the impressive speed he had shown at McLaren.

There were quite some complaints of Raikkonen being frustrated at Ferrari not providing the steering/handling he requested, and this only being supplied once Massa was injured and thus Raikkonen become the undisputed number one driver during 2009 -- at which point Raikkonen's Ferrari was suddenly handling superbly and was transformed into a competitive machine winning Spa, far beyond the slow Ferrari which started the 2009 season (despite Badoer and Fisichella being very slow in the car, Fisichella being slow despite taking pole position in the Force India at Spa mere rounds earlier)!

[chunterer]

V8 F.. Thanls for the reply.

Good points raised whether serious or tongue in cheek.

I guess the same sort of theories apply to Montoya not getting on so well with 'Kimi's' Mclaren, or Herbert/Lehto/Jos and also laterly Alesi and Berger with Schu's Benetton, Frentzen with Villeneuve's Williams etc etc.

At what point does a team denying there is a number 1 driver instead mean that it's up to both drivers to just get on and work with the design or set up direction that has been chosen?

A particularly difficult subject to be clear about!

[Akrapovic]

I feel like the discussion on the second RBR seat is about to get more complex.

Despite his best efforts, Perez has somehow extended his second place in the championship again. He had 39 points over Lewis. It's by no-means confirmed, but it's looking like he'll get it. That would give RBR it's best ever championship result with a 1-2. Despite Perez really not being good enough.

Meanwhile, they continue to market Danny Ric over Perez, heavily suggesting he's going to get the seat. He's managed 3 races this season, and all 3 times he's finished behind Yuki, and in 2 of those, Yuki got points. Danny is sitting 22nd in a championship with 20 cars and is now the only current driver without any points. Yet this is apparently enough to get a seat in the RBR?

Perhaps its time for RBR to look outside of their own teams.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Perhaps its time for RBR to look outside of their own teams.

They really don't need to unless Verstappen breaks his leg abseiling or something. But, yes - If Ricciardo is the answer, then please can someone remind me what the question is.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

They really don't need to unless Verstappen breaks his leg abseiling or something. But, yes - If Ricciardo is the answer, then please can someone remind me what the question is.

If they don't need to be concerned with the second car, then the answer is Perez because he's there and not really causing any problems.

[P38 in workshop]

I believe there are good candidates outside the Red Bull system and neither of the current Alpha Tauri drivers seems to be outstanding.Hard to see a reason to shake things up just yet.There could be some movement next summer as a number of contracts will be ending.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I believe there are good candidates outside the Red Bull system and neither of the current Alpha Tauri drivers seems to be outstanding.Hard to see a reason to shake things up just yet.There could be some movement next summer as a number of contracts will be ending.

So what didn't Lawson do in his short stint to convince you he isn't a potential star in the making?!

[Skam85]

I personally think Perez's card has been marked since the Monaco crash in qualifying last year. But he seems to be doing (just) enough to keep his seat.

The team obviously see more in DR than we do on track, who knows how he would have done in the races Lawson excelled at. He's done nothing special to show he's got the old school DR mojo back yet. Yuki has had a pretty good year I think but he's not the guy to put in RB.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I believe there are good candidates outside the Red Bull system and neither of the current Alpha Tauri drivers seems to be outstanding.Hard to see a reason to shake things up just yet.There could be some movement next summer as a number of contracts will be ending.

Will admit to wanting to see Albon back in there with another shot.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The team obviously see more in DR than we do on track, who knows how he would have done in the races Lawson excelled at. He's done nothing special to show he's got the old school DR mojo back yet. Yuki has had a pretty good year I think but he's not the guy to put in RB.

Too early on DR - he had two GPs before he broke his hand & looked much stronger in the 2nd one but said himself that was still getting up to speed and that Zandvoort would be the race where he'd be fully in gear.

Wasn't expecting too much at Austin and again he's in the same boat - we'll only have a clearer picture at the end of the season I reckon on whether the old Danny Ric is back or some kind of facsimile.

On the question of RBR, personally I think that if Checo can sort himself out (& he looked and sounded much more confident at COTA) then he'll be in the seat next year, as he should be really.