Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[carbsmith]

It's a P2 car with like 50 more horsepower and no downforce, sure.

The car ran a lot longer than expected (although, the hybrid system was always going to be the problem and if it isn't active it can't break) but the chassis was also shockingly fragile to the point they couldn't drive the car hard anyways without the wheels falling off. Considering how overweight they are that's fairly concerning.

“Most LM P1 manufacturers don’t finish Le Mans at their first attempt so it was important for us to hit this target,”

It never ends, does it? The last factory team to not get a car to the finish in their debut year that comes to mind is BMW in 1998. Audi finished, Cadillac finished, Bentley finished, Peugeot finished, Toyota finished, and Porsche finished. The lowest of those in 11th, while Nissan wasn't even classified. When is someone going to tell him to stop?

[Pole2Win]

I really wanted to see this car go fast, because it's a new thing. I think Nissan will do their best to improve it, considering they went through the trouble of fielding 3 of them at the race.

The front-engined design isn't inherently flawed, IMO. What worries me is the front-drive approach. Making this work will be their biggest challenge.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It never ends, does it? The last factory team to not get a car to the finish in their debut year that comes to mind is BMW in 1998. Audi finished, Cadillac finished, Bentley finished, Peugeot finished, Toyota finished, and Porsche finished. The lowest of those in 11th, while Nissan wasn't even classified.

So, because of a few recent exceptions, the rule is automatically invalidated?

Sorry, but that's not how it works. Throughout history, the majority of top-class sportscar programs have failed in their first year. A few recent exceptions does not change that.

(incidentally, Cadillac and Bentley don't exactly back your point - the Bentley was little more than re-skinned Audi R8, and the Cadillac was built mostly from off-the-shelf parts that were known to be reliable; It wasn't exactly pushing any limits)

[carbsmith]

Every manufacturer entrant but one in the history of the LMP1 class (two if you count the AMR One as AM's first real year) dating back two decades is a few recent exceptions? The last time Nissan entered Le Mans as a factory team and DNF'd every car (although in 1999 they had to fall back on their Courage) was 1989.

It's a flat out lie.

[FormulaFox]

If you're only counting the last couple of decades, then you're not grasping the sheer size of the matter.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It never ends, does it? The last factory team to not get a car to the finish in their debut year that comes to mind is BMW in 1998. Audi finished, Cadillac finished, Bentley finished, Peugeot finished, Toyota finished, and Porsche finished. The lowest of those in 11th, while Nissan wasn't even classified. When is someone going to tell him to stop?

Am I not understanding something, because I think this is wrong.

Toyota didn't finish in 2012. The AMR-Ones didn't finish in 2011. BMW and Mercedes didn't in 1998. And there are many more.

Nissan is still in the early stages of this project. The car has a lot of potential...this isn't another AMR-One fiasco.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by mikuni

From what I saw it made me excited for the cars future potential. I have to admit, seeing the Porsche and Audi carving the Nissan up through the higher speed curves was striking in the speed differential, but just served as a reminder as to how much more development the Nissan needs.

It will be exciting to see the further growth of this car, and whether Nissan change anything significant, or are committed to deliver the original design.

I think they will need a new design...

The straight speed even materialized with 337-338kmh was around the top, and that with not even an hybrid system working for 'launching', which is quite important even for straight speed (Porsche proves it, their engine is inferior to Nissan, yet top speed is superior)... so that is the only thing positive about this car... the rest was frankly bad... horful !...

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Am I not understanding something, because I think this is wrong.

Toyota didn't finish in 2012. The AMR-Ones didn't finish in 2011. BMW and Mercedes didn't in 1998. And there are many more.

Thanks for this - I was quite certain there were more than he was saying, but I have no time to go digging around for now.

Though I could have mentioned that Mercedes didn't finish in 1999, the point was about first-year top-class programs.

[TF110]

Carbsmith, you are incorrect with those examples of finishing the race on debut. As much hate as this car/team gets (thats the word that springs to mind), you gotta admit, they kept fighting. They finished with the #22. They set a 3:35 lap time, (barely) faster than lmp2. Sure Kolles had more laps and Rebellion was actually classified, but a small victory is still a victory! It can only go up from here.

[carbsmith]

Mercedes wasn't an LMP in 1998 and that would still make the last one BMW, since they lasted (a little) longer. Also yeah actually Toyota didn't finish in 2012 (although they did in 1998), that makes it what, 3 out of 7? Is there some math where that's a majority?

Mercedes didn't DNF in 1999, they withdrew.

The #22 didn't finish. They were an entire Petit Le Mans short of running 24 hours. Actually, that one's also a lie, Nissan's press release completely ignores the fact they aren't an official finisher and weren't classified.


I don't even care they didn't finish because they ran way more laps than I expected but trotting the car out to cross the line not even close to making the minimum distance and then pretending that makes you successful is just disingenuous and completely insulting to our intelligence. Was the press release headline "Disappointing day at Le Mans" or "Nissan battles hard at Le Mans"? No, it was MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. How can anyone pretend to take them seriously?

[TF110]

Would you rather they give up? Whats your issue with them anyway? Whats anyone's issue with them? Its not like they did us wrong, ya know. They crossed the finish line, -100 or 200 laps, they still finished.

[TzeiTzei]

I feel the need to congratulate the team. They had problems but they always got the car back out again. I followed their onboards for the first couple of hours. Being clearly faster than LMP2s on the straights helped quite a lot and they got to the middle of that class. Clearly they were quite slow in both high and low speed corners. What did Marshall Pruett say about not running over kerbs to not damage something? I was too tired to remember now. Bring one of these to TUSC for the rest of the year while you develop it .

They weren't as fast as the CLM but they had a nice quiet race for while. Then the comedy started. Both the Nissans and the CLM would sit in the pits for a while when they fixed their problems, get back out again, do some laps and disappear to the pits to be fixed again. They had their own race back there, and I found it kind of funny that until the last couple of hours they were never really separated by that many laps.

Anyway, the car has now raced and I'm eager to see how much more speed they are able to find from it.

[maximus]

I have to say I'm glad they managed to finish (to a point!) and well done to them. The car is different and has some potential, lets see where they go next!

The press release they put out has made me roll my eyes a touch (especially the first paragraph and the headline) although it isn't too bad once you get beyond that.

[wolfhound]

After Le Mans I would expect Nissan to be about the same level as Porsche were last year in 2016. They have a long way to go in a number of areas. Besides actual car performance there is the whole thing of getting the team working together, the car will need to be more race friendly as in being able to fix something fast, the best example was their nose change which seemed to take ages where as Porsche did a nose change and full service in about 90 seconds.
In terms of performance they seem weakest in 3 areas downforce, acceleration and brakes. The latter 2 are down primarily to their flywheel and transmission system not working as originally intended.

Their 'to do' list after Le Mans must take up a few Gigabytes.
If they get their flywheel system working properly that car is potentially very fast with a question mark over cornering ability.
The car seems to have been designed with no compromises in terms of aero and power unit where as Porsche seems to have compromised on a smaller power unit for packaging purposes.
It will be interesting to see how the Nissan develops and whether they can overcome their problems.

[Gingers4Justice]

I smiled a little bit every time a Nissan went past me this weekend.

Sorry. I like the car.

And I'm glad they're here.

You can't have a sensible conversation about the project anymore and there are culprits from both sides. Shame, I would have liked to have discussed what they can take away from this weekend but there's no chance of that happening with all the emotive language, but I've known it would be this toxic for a long time. Just going to leave the rest of you to it - I hope you get something out of this thread at least.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Mercedes wasn't an LMP in 1998

We're not referring exclusively to LMPs. Or GTPs. We're talking about the TOP CLASS at Le Mans. ALL of them. Which in 1998 was the GT class that Mercedes was running.

If you keep trying to restrict the issue to a single era, you're just killing your own argument.

Mercedes didn't DNF in 1999, they withdrew.

They withdrew ONE car. One didn't start, and the other failed to finish. All three were the result of a severe problem with the car that resulted in three failures(one at test day) far more epic than a failure of the Nissan GT-R LM Nismo could EVER be.

No, it was MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. How can anyone pretend to take them seriously?

Because they had no hope of winning with an incomplete car, they knew they had no hope, and instead decided to use the race for gathering data and practicing servicing the car for when it IS finished?

Not only can I guarantee you that's the mission they went into Le Mans with, it's a mission they definitely accomplished.

[Japanese Samurai]

Masahiro Hasemi (Legendary Nissan driver) says that it is wasteful even if data is collected by the GTR-LM slower than LMP2 car in the LM 24 live coverage.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Masahiro Hasemi (Legendary Nissan driver) says that it is wasteful even if data is collected by the GTR-LM slower than LMP2 car in the LM 24 live coverage.

When you're developing a car that's effectively the same as everything else and you're really just trying to find the little tweaks that give you the edge, Hasemi's statement is accurate. If you can't even get CLOSE to the top dogs' lap times, you've screwed something up on a fundamental level and no amount of small tweaks is going to fix it.

This is not such a case. These cars are so advanced, and so different(even the "conventional" Toyotas, Porsches, and Audis ALL use different hybrid systems) that even if Nissan had been building a common mid-engine/rear-drive car, the amount of data they need to perfect every tiny little detail is so immense that there would be a MASSIVE benefit to running for data under similar circumstances.

When you factor in the fact that Nissan has even MORE they need to understand to get things working right than any other car out there, the benefits become even more obvious.

Drivers only need a car that can do the job. But the engineers need data to build them that car.

This is why drivers are not engineers. (usually)

[Coopz21 x]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I smiled a little bit every time a Nissan went past me this weekend.

Sorry. I like the car.

And I'm glad they're here.

You can't have a sensible conversation about the project anymore and there are culprits from both sides. Shame, I would have liked to have discussed what they can take away from this weekend but there's no chance of that happening with all the emotive language, but I've known it would be this toxic for a long time. Just going to leave the rest of you to it - I hope you get something out of this thread at least.

At the start of the week i didnt care for this project i thought it was going to fail and be an embarrassment, i was thinking that it was going to be like the AMR ONE, however when it got to 6 hours in and they technically had all 3 cars still IN the race i changed my mind and i spent the rest of the 24 flicking between onboard of the #21 #22 and #23. despite the lap time's being awful i think they can leave with their heads high! No Hybrid power, still fastest in a straight line. and if it wasnt for them loosing a wheel they would have got 2 cars over the line. I'l be following this project more now, and i too would like to have a sensible conversation. lol

[Akrapovic]

Went worse than I expected honestly. Top speed was about there, but launch wasn't. That can be put down to the lack of hybrid system (however that is their own fault, nobody else's). The cornering was abysmal, and the car doesn't have the ability to put down power early out of corners, and even causes GT cars to bottle up behind it. Whilst this concept might work for Le Mans if it's executed perfectly, this is not executed well and will not work elsewhere. The front tyre wear was also a serious issue, going against what they'd said.

I wish them well, but I see little to celebrate here. It wasn't fast, reliable, didn't show promise and took up a slot a real racing car could've had. Had this been a LMP2 privateer then I doubt it would've been received so nicely. The car was further off the pace and had he same reliability as the Lavaggi LS1.


I look forward to seeing 2 at the Nurburgring round to see if the non LM package is a step forward.

[Trebor123]

Nissan can attempt to spin the disappointing result, as might be expected, in order to try and save face. However, it is difficult to gloss over the following facts:

1. They were approximately as fast, during qualifying as the amazing KCMG LMP2 Nissan ORECA 05 - that ended the race in 9th position! This was despite the 60 hp advantage of the Nissan LMP1 (even without ERS) and having a car that was 30kg lighter.

2. The Nissan LMP1s suffered from poor cornering speeds, that more than nullified any aerodynamic advantage in the LMP1 class. Reality appears to have diverged somewhat from the modelling and simulations, although it may have looked impressive racing on a Playstation 4?

3. The ERS was either semi-functional or non-functional throughout much of the race and further details may, or may not, emerge from Nissan.

4. To deliver approximately the performance of a good LMP2 but be far less reliable is embarrassing, given the far greater expenditure by Nissan. Is all publicity good publicity, or was this more a triumph of marketing over engineering by Darren Cox and others?

Where next for the Nissan LMP1, in the rest of the season?

[Coopz21 x]

It can only get better for them this season. The concept needs a lot of work but i think it will work eventually

[AndrewCherry]

I've been avoiding replying in this thread, as without much insider info it's hard to avoid the existing situation of a slanging match.

I was disappointed when it became clear a while ago that certainly for LM this year they would be nowhere near the pace to make them relevant. However, I do have to give them credit for attempting something different (even if the marketing angles veer too close to hyperbole for my personal taste, I can understand why they're doing it).

On the actual performance of the car... Well, the top speed is certainly impressive I guess, given the power level they're running at. That said, given the realities of a race, I have to wonder about how much use it's going to be if they become dramatically quicker in a straight line. Can they safely use that in traffic? It might become a rocket, but a rocket I wouldn't fancy trying to drive through closing gaps in battling GTs... The cornering looked horrific. How representative that is, I have no idea - if they get the ERS + AWD, it's effectively a different car. All we can really say for now is that, in this form, it's a dog in corners. I'll be fascinated to see when they can get some of the rest of it working - this year possibly? When they do, worth watching - before then, it's a novelty act.

[Mr Pink]

Straight line speed was impressive i must say!

I do wonder how much a working hybrid will help braking and above all, if the lack of cornering speed is fixable or if it's down to a fundamental design flaw. It will be interesting to see the cars in the coming WEC races where cornering speed is more important than straight line speed, maybe a high downforce setup will help and give some important knowledge for next year?

I'm choosing to ignore the PR since that's not down to the actual race team, and the race team is the part of the project that actually matter to me.

Anyway, congratulations to Nissan for staying in the race way longer than I expected!

[bjohnsonsmith]

This is obviously an ambitious project, which goes against the grain and undoubtedly it's going to be plagued with problems of one sort or another, from the off.

They pulled out of Silverstone and Spa and maybe they should have pulled out of Le Mans and this year's WEC season completely and left it for another year but they didn't and decided to go racing; so I commend them for that and they will learn a hell of a lot from it. As for the race itself and the result, it's more or less what I was expecting, though personally, I would have liked to have seen more.