[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[Hiro]

I dont know if its true or not but interesting to read:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/m...-11404252.html
Toyota LM spec seems faster than they were at spa early May although they run slower and carefully through Eue Rouge not to break the engine again. Maybe at least they have found the cause at spa.

[kvenom]

Seems kinda silly if the LM spec was faster than the HD at Spa while taking it easy at Eau Rouge, not to use it. Toyota love their games.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Seems kinda silly if the LM spec was faster than the HD at Spa while taking it easy at Eau Rouge, not to use it. Toyota love their games.

It gives them more time to tweak the LM kit before they homologate it. If i understand things correctly Porsche and Audi have already homologated their LM kits by racing them in Spa, and other than playing a little with the AoA of the wings they can't change anything.

[GasperG]

Porsche and Audi didn't run LM kit at SPA.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Porsche and Audi didn't run LM kit at SPA.

I don't know what you would call it, but it was there 2nd homologated kit for the season, and they have only 3. Most likely they will develop the 3rd for the 2nd part of the season.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by cokata

I don't know what you would call it, but it was there 2nd homologated kit for the season, and they have only 3. Most likely they will develop the 3rd for the 2nd part of the season.

I guess that only audi was in full LM bodywork, porsche used the same bodywork (should be called medium downforce maybe?) of silverstone, just less loaded.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Artur

Well, I already gave my two cents regarding the Toyota's performance, at Spa, so I won't bother with repeating it. All I'm gonna say is that I'm loving all this Toyota hype especially because I have a good feeling that this thread will, once again, be filled with excuses after another LM...... so enjoy the hope while it lasts. At least that will be something in case Toyota doesn't finally win it.

As an Audi fan, I'm not expecting a good perfomance from them either. Let's see if the race at least turns out to be entertaining

Why are you trolling? No one goes to the Audi thread and says there will be excuses when they don't win. Everyone hopes their team wins, unless you're not truly a fan of that team or have no preference.

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

*... toyota will win LM 24h!
and if they won't do it, is just because they are sandbagging.
It's the golden rule of this forum.

I don't ever remember reading something likeyou just said. No one made any excuses for them last year. They were too slow and outdeveloped. In 2014 it was a wiring loom and Lapierre crashing in the wet. Those aren't excuses. They're called facts.

Originally Posted by Hiro

I dont know if its true or not but interesting to read:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/m...-11404252.html
Toyota LM spec seems faster than they were at spa early May although they run slower and carefully through Eue Rouge not to break the engine again. Maybe at least they have found the cause at spa.

Interesting article. Goes into detail about how Spa affected the engines.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

I guess that only audi was in full LM bodywork, porsche used the same bodywork (should be called medium downforce maybe?) of silverstone, just less loaded.

That's just false.

[GasperG]

Where am I wrong?
Porsche - HD at Silverstone, interm package at SPA
Audi - HD at silverstone, interm at SPA
Toyota - HD (more like interm) at Silverstone, HD at SPA, LD at Paul Ricard and at LeMans.

It's true that only Toyota raced with one aero package, but that does not mean that other two will race LeMans with the same package as at SPA, they could homologate third package before LeMans specificity for LeMans. But I'm not here to say that with 100% certainty.

I think It's very likely Toyota will present 3rd true HD package after LeMans for the rest of the WEC season. Or they will just go with 2 existing packages, after all next year only two packages will be allowed.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Where am I wrong?
Porsche - HD at Silverstone, interm package at SPA
Audi - HD at silverstone, interm at SPA
Toyota - HD (more like interm) at Silverstone, HD at SPA, LD at Paul Ricard and at LeMans.

It's true that only Toyota raced with one aero package, but that does not mean that other two will race LeMans with the same package as at SPA, they could homologate third package before LeMans specificity for LeMans. But I'm not here to say that with 100% certainty.

I think It's very likely Toyota will present 3rd true HD package after LeMans for the rest of the WEC season. Or they will just go with 2 existing packages, after all next year only two packages will be allowed.

Porsche had the same S1 and S3 times (the high speed stuff) as in 2015 (when they raced the LM package at Spa) and they had a better S2 than the HD Toyota. I think it's safe to say that Porsche's package is working pretty well and there is no need to develop a completely different one in a search of an even better performance when they already are the strong favorites to win.

[sssssssss]

they managed the same s1 and s3 times, but much lower top speed than 2015. if anything, i would expect their top speed to grow at le mans, not go lower, given that one of their few weak points last year was audi being able to overtake them at the end of long straights.

i'm really confused as to what aero setups everyone used so far, but audi looks pretty close to what we've been calling le mans aero (same as in the monza test, wasn't it?). i remember eurosport commentators saying audi and porsche are in lm spec, tweaked for spa. but is that official? does anyone really have official info on which bodywork setups were homologated by each team thus far?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

they managed the same s1 and s3 times, but much lower top speed than 2015. if anything, i would expect their top speed to grow at le mans, not go lower, given that one of their few weak points last year was audi being able to overtake them at the end of long straights.

i'm really confused as to what aero setups everyone used so far, but audi looks pretty close to what we've been calling le mans aero (same as in the monza test, wasn't it?). i remember eurosport commentators saying audi and porsche are in lm spec, tweaked for spa. but is that official? does anyone really have official info on which bodywork setups were homologated by each team thus far?

Let's not forget that trap speeds != top speeds. Going up a MJ class might mean they have to lift and coast earlier down the straight to stay within the fuel/lap window, and that can mean that they're already lifting and slowing down before the speed trap.

[chernaudi]

Except that Porsche were already at 8MJ last year. Only thing that could cause that most likely is the 7% power cut across the board for hybrid LMP1s.

[sssssssss]

... or the spa aero kit not being too LM-oriented.

they were also faster than toyota's hd package on sector 2, so the downforce was there.

[Deleted]

"Toyota bullish of Le Mans chances despite Spa disaster"
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/t...saster-742346/

Little bit more negative tone again on the 3rd car prospects for 2017.

Also they tweeted:



And trucks have arrived at LM.

[Adam43]

Great scale on the Toyota speed chart

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Great scale on the Toyota speed chart

yeah nice, but completely pointless... r-one too can reach top speeds close to 340km/h at le mans without any hybrid boost (nissan gt-r lm was able to do it too). When a car uses a low drag bodywork, high top speeds is the minimum you expect.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Great scale on the Toyota speed chart

Was thinking the same thing, genuinely questioning my basic maths for a minute there.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

yeah nice, but completely pointless... r-one too can reach top speeds close to 340km/h at le mans without any hybrid boost (nissan gt-r lm was able to do it too). When a car uses a low drag bodywork, high top speeds is the minimum you expect.

Except, Toyota was in "high downforce" trim like they've said I don't know how many times

You talk a lot about how Toyota was slower than Porsche in sector 2 and somehow they have a bad car because of that. Look at their top speeds on the timing and scoring http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/. The Audi was clearly the fastest factory car in top speed, but t&s doesn't show that. Porsche was running 'high downforce' as well. That's why their best top speed was lower than Audi, but at the same time the best they did at the scoring line was 312kmh (on in-lap 36 2:05), same as Buemi (on lap 27, a 2:03), both faster than Audi (309.9kmh). That's because Audi was still accelerating beyond the scoring line, Toyota and Porsche could take Radillion flat out while Audi lifted. That's because of their downforce level.

[GasperG]

Exactly, look at the Chronological Analysis and see that fastest laps are not achieved with fastest trap speed.

Looking at best lap times top speed is maybe the most useful way of using top speed I can think of
Qualifying:
- Porsche #1 best lap: 305.9 kmh
- Porsche #2 best lap: 305.9 kmh
- Toyota #5: 288.9 kmh
- Toyota #6: 288.9 kmh
- Audi #7: 314.1 kmh
- Audi #8: 312 kmh
Race:
- Porsche #1 best lap: 281.9 kmh
- Porsche #2 best lap: 283.6 kmh
- Toyota #5: 287.1 kmh
- Toyota #6: 290.7 kmh
- Audi #7: 305.9 kmh
- Audi #8: 307.9 kmh

The only true deviation that I see is Audi but I think it's because of less ERS boost energy but more engine power and not aero difference. Porsche and Toyota are too close to make any conclusion, it's more about different strategies than the cars abilities.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

I guess that only audi was in full LM bodywork, porsche used the same bodywork (should be called medium downforce maybe?) of silverstone, just less loaded.

919's fenders were also low draggy(boxy)

Originally Posted by TF110

That's because Audi was still accelerating beyond the scoring line, Toyota and Porsche could take Radillion flat out while Audi lifted. That's because of their downforce level.

I highly doubt anybody would need to lift(on a normal run) at Radillion, even with no wings at all. Can you back that up, please?

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Artur

919's fenders were also low draggy(boxy)


I highly doubt anybody would need to lift(on a normal run) at Radillion, even with no wings at all. Can you back that up, please?

In 2014 only the Audi did not lift at Radillion beucase it was high downforce, the Toyota did a big lift while the Porsche even braked a little IIRC. I don't know about the Audi lifting, but Toyota and Porsche were flat out without a problem.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Artur

919's fenders were also low draggy(boxy)


I highly doubt anybody would need to lift(on a normal run) at Radillion, even with no wings at all. Can you back that up, please?

Watch the race again (it's on youtube) and pay attention to the Audi and Toyota battle. They definitely lift through Eau Rouge. I donno if they lifted through radillion (which is basically the exit of Eua Rouge), but I do know the Toyota and Porsche were running flat-out through the whole turn, unlike the Audi. It's easy to tell what trim the cars were in.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by TF110

Watch the race again (it's on youtube) and pay attention to the Audi and Toyota battle. They definitely lift through Eau Rouge. I donno if they lifted through radillion (which is basically the exit of Eua Rouge), but I do know the Toyota and Porsche were running flat-out through the whole turn, unlike the Audi. It's easy to tell what trim the cars were in.

You might find this interesting:http://www.circuitsofthepast.nl/en-U...amps/raidillon

[Artur]

I only watched the last ~1.5 hour of the race.

But I have the onboard footage from qualifying and the R18s were definitely flatout there. I guess the telemetry showed them lifting in a lap when they were defending position(out of ideal line)?

But I also have last year's onboard qualifying footage and it's already surprising to me that Porsche needed to lift there(Audi and Toyota didn't), so I guess maybe Audi needed too, on this year's race, with heavier car and wore tires.....