The Future of F3

[edenrace]

Many different ideas and proposals so lets ask a few questions
1. 8 events 3 races each weekend is probably the correct format
2. 7 events in UK 1 in Europe?
3 Latest FIA spec cars or does it not matter if older and engines not FIA spec?
4 what budget per car to get a 18 car field?
5 is TV esential?

[bella]

is tv essential? that's an interesting one isn't it. seems to be very much down to personal choice. lots of people assume live tv is important to sponsors - only if you market the driver or the series to them that way. who actually watches tv nowadays anyway?

i'm an avid fan of the espn fr3.5 and eurocup coverage. it's absolutely great, and why? because unlike almost every single other non-f1 tv show covering a formula, it actually has features and interviews and stuff with drivers and teams. it's not even live, but it doesn't matter. there's no point in just showing the races and the qualifying session if you're not going to devote a bit of time to meeting the guys involved. on the other hand, if the actual racing footage is well edited, captures all the important stuff and doesn't give you motion sickness, it's a shame to miss that.

i feel like a good way forward would be to have a good solid highlights show soon after the races (within a few days, not a week) with some basic interviews, and with extended video interviews and features available on the website. the tv people are there already, why not use them? it might even work to have the entire race available to download or stream if it's not available on television.

[edenrace]

British F3 currently has this ....every race televised and shown after the events with interviews. 3 of 4 races this year will also transmit live.
But I am not sure if the cost is actualy worth it with so much motor sport on tv.

[bella]

who is the tv coverage for? what's it doing? why do drivers and the actual bill-payers want it? what else do they want? would they actually prefer more free tickets and better hospitality for their guests instead of live tv?

imo it's part of a bigger question - what do the customers want from a series and what are their priorities? since it's usually daddy... what does he want from his son's series?

[Nick Harrison]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Many different ideas and proposals so lets ask a few questions
1. 8 events 3 races each weekend is probably the correct format
2. 7 events in UK 1 in Europe?
3 Latest FIA spec cars or does it not matter if older and engines not FIA spec?
4 what budget per car to get a 18 car field?
5 is TV esential?

So make it two races not three each weekend and you have MSV F3 Cup with 20+ cars on the grid.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by edenrace

5 is TV esential?

If the series with these kinds of budgets is to be successful, yes. Terrestrial coverage on BBC or ITV [and it must be live these days] makes a huge difference. You only need to look at the BTCC to see the effect it has.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

imo it's part of a bigger question - what do the customers want from a series and what are their priorities? since it's usually daddy... what does he want from his son's series?

These people were always the wrong type of 'customer' for BF3 and when the series became dependent on them the warning bells ought to have been heeded.

[Flavio Galtieri]

If you give me £500,000 I'll plan you a TV campaign that will reach around 85,000,000 adults in the UK. You have a very good chance of making a return on investment depending obviously on what you are selling.

If you want to sell your products via Formula Three, or anything OTHER than Formula One, then I'm afraid when you do the sums it really isn't going to look like very good value.

Some Motors TV programs don't even reach 10,000 UK viewers, and ITV4 at 4 am isn't much better.

That is part of the the problem.

[JohnMiller]

Er, there aren't 85,000,000 adults in the UK.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If the series with these kinds of budgets is to be successful, yes. Terrestrial coverage on BBC or ITV [and it must be live these days] makes a huge difference. You only need to look at the BTCC to see the effect it has.

But BTCC is 'exciting'. It has regular drivers year after year, who don't all get on. Contact is, unofficially, encouraged. Being naughty is 'a good thing'. There's a story there.
F1 is interesting - it's marketed as the pinnacle, it has drivers there for years so you 'get to know them', and it's all shiny and technical, which ultra high speeds, and is vastly out of reach of mere mortals.

F3 (at any level) is... well... Drivers are rarely there for more than 2 years, and often one of those is spent at the back of the grid in the National class. There isn't much overtaking, and there isn't the raw speed/high technology factor to compensate. Contact is avoided (obviously, being open wheel). There isn't much to market to anyone. The average Joe on the street doesn't care about F3, so they won't tune in and watch it. So it doesn't work on TV for most people*

With the BTCC live broadcasts, I wonder if they know how many people watch the support races, or do they go out and cut the grass or wash the car whilst waiting for the Touring Cars to play again?

*I'd love live F3 on terrestrial TV on a Saturday/Sunday. It's not the same, somehow, when it's on C4 at a random time on a random day some time after the event. I think I only managed to watch one race last season, or maybe the season before. And I like to think that I might have an idea of what's going on, and be watching from a more nerdy point of view.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Er, there aren't 85,000,000 adults in the UK.

OK I should have said "Adult impressions" or views of the ad. Obviously most people in the target market will be seeing the ad more than once.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

F3 (at any level) is... well... Drivers are rarely there for more than 2 years, and often one of those is spent at the back of the grid in the National class. There isn't much overtaking, and there isn't the raw speed/high technology factor to compensate. Contact is avoided (obviously, being open wheel). There isn't much to market to anyone. The average Joe on the street doesn't care about F3, so they won't tune in and watch it. So it doesn't work on TV for most people*

Now we're starting to get places. These are some of the fundamentals that are wrong with the series. The sad thing is, I've not seen any appetite to address them.

[ivanalesi]

F3 racing is boring, the whole stupid air restrictor deal is absolutely crazy and so out of date. It's not serious to be so close to F1 and have so little horse power. Same goes for all the aero gizmos development, they're not relevant anymore. The rules of F3 are truly the #1 cause of problems. It reminds me of WRC.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Many different ideas and proposals so lets ask a few questions
1. 8 events 3 races each weekend is probably the correct format
2. 7 events in UK 1 in Europe?
3 Latest FIA spec cars or does it not matter if older and engines not FIA spec?
4 what budget per car to get a 18 car field?
5 is TV esential?

Why would career drivers enter it? The whole formulae scene is not about sponsors or TV, it's a ladder rung for those with benefactors/investors. A bonus is running as support races to a series where manufacturers will see you - e.g DTM or on a GP bill where teams will see you.

Frankly if you don't have the budget for BF3 then you definately won't have the budget for GP3, WSR or certainly GP2 - so even if we ran a cut price BF3 how would the driver progress?

How many drivers do we ever see from the much cheaper F3 European Open or BARC F Renault appear in BF3, Euro F3 or GP3 - even after winning the title?

Motorsport has always been a rich man's 'sport' and is even more so today, trying to make BF3 cheaper for those who don't have the budget is pointless.

As has been pointed out above, we have a cut price F3 series in the MSV Cup and how many of those drivers do you seen in a major series up the ladder - none?

[blindfold]

As most people have pointed out, there simply isn't the money around anymore. This is the bulk of the problem.

GP3 teams have offered cheap deals, so not only has it been cheaper than British F3, it's also been more appealing. The insiders know that the car isn't as nice as an F3 car, either technically or in terms of driving. But it runs with F1, and that's where the kids want to be. Whether Christian Horner is up at 7:30 in the morning to watch the race is questionable, but to say that might be is nice card to play when talking to sponsors.

And in the Euroseries, well the promoters of the DTM bought several of the F3 cars and sold them back to teams on a finance deal. So costs were cheaper for them, and it got more cars on the grid. Also there has been a steady stream of F3 drivers being picked up my the DTM manufacturers. In term's of careers, it's a good place to be.

Let's not forget Formula Renault either, win the 2.0 eurocup and you basically get a free WSbR drive. What a way to entice driver's into your programme from an early age.

What does British F3 have?

And to the TV question, who really who wants to watch F3? It is, as has been said, boring. Amazing for drivers, rubbish for joe public. And I think the euroseries has got it right, stream it over the internet, Live, and with a couple of commentators who know what they're talking about. The bobblehatters can watch it, drivers parents can watch it, and if sponsors are interested, then it's a nice little package to watch. But the general public aren't interested. The power to grip ratio simply doesn't produce any entertainment. But, and this is the saving thing for F3, that there simply isn't any other car out there that drivers really want to drive more, and enjoy driving more. So many drivers move up from F3, but miss the thrill of driving a car with so much grip.

And why are you still saying about going to Europe? What's the point? It's British F3. Go back to how it used to be, go back to Thruxton, and Knockhill etc. Set yourself aside from the rest, and try and entice drivers in because it's British F3. You can keep banging on about Senna etc and the glory days, but when Senna won it, it wasn't the 60% British F3 Championship....

[edenrace]

Facts GP3 is same budget as F3...difference in F3 drivers have twice the mileage.

Previously a number of drivers came from strong UK junior series and had driven on British circuits, today without these series they drive in Renault Eurocup and when you travel throughout Europe to be based in the UK racing on the majority of British circuits is not inspiring.

Good article in Motorsport News this week.

[davyboy]

"We've created our own monster" A quote from Trevor Carlin about the state of BF3 in a major expose by Marcus Simmons on the series in this week's Autosport magazine. Having read the 4 page insight, the only conclusion I can come to is that the series needs to be canned right now. Given all the craziness that's gone on in recent years, it's incredible that the series actually prevailed as long as it did. It's an out and out farce.

[bella]

having now read that article on the website....

it's not a farce. that's just lazy tabloid english. it's one of the downsides of running a cooperative. it goes back to what i said a couple of pages ago, that it's all about the egos and the fact that team owners will act in the interests of their team, not in the interests of the championship as a whole. the whole point of a cooperative is that everyone has to put their egos and their own interests aside and act in everyone's interests.

i agree with berger, that going forward, national championships need to stay national. the only exemption in that imo is that british f3 should really include spa. don't know why, maybe it's the weather and that it's not far to travel or something.

i don't know why we say the old concept is lost though. the old concept, that of the past 10 years, was totally wrong and overinflated anyway. trying to rival the euroseries is and always has been silly. we NEED the thruxtons, knockhills and oulton parks. those are what make british motorsport *british*, and completely distinct and seperate to the countries that mostly just have big dull tilkedromes.

i stand by something i said a while ago too. that to compete in the european f3 series, a driver should have to participate in a national one too. german, italian, whatever. that way the european series isn't devalued, but the national ones retain some importance. the national ones need only be 3-4 events, but it's essential that they exist. most fr2.0 eurocup drivers participate in the nec or alps series as well, so it does work, they get maximum tracktime and the budgets aren't too silly.

one bit strikes me as ridiculous though. why should the msa have ever put any money up at all when the european series money is coming from manufacturers?? we're now a nation without a major car builder so we're not going to be able to have the same kind of manufacturer love-in like the dmsb has with mercedes etc. we need to again, think laterally and look at alternatives. you cannot just point at another nation with a different selection of businesses and industry and demand that we have the same as them. you have to operate within our situation and court the relevant areas of finance.

or you accept that the days of britain having anything but a recreational motorsport series are over, and you get on with competing in europe at any level you can get your hands on. we have so much engineering talent in this country. let's use it and nurture the new talent before it gets lost to the world of spreadsheets and data input forever.

[davyboy]

Let's not get into the semantics of this... the goings on chronicled in that article, by a well respected scribe, are utterly ridiculous. You wouldn't get them from primary school children in a playground.

[edenrace]

So So easy to be experts afterwards.

[bella]

depends whether we take in our experiences and learn from them, or just use them as a stick to beat others with.

[courageous]

Originally Posted by chunterer

In basic terms the spectator levels at F3 haven't increased in the last 20 years (possibly decreased) but the costs of entering F3 have probably trebled!

Basing your business model on spectator numbers is pointless in the UK (BTCC aside) - you will never have big crowds when most Circuit owners (who keep the gate money) don't want spectators & actually see them as a nucience.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by bella

having now read that article on the website....

it's not a farce. that's just lazy tabloid english. it's one of the downsides of running a cooperative. it goes back to what i said a couple of pages ago, that it's all about the egos and the fact that team owners will act in the interests of their team, not in the interests of the championship as a whole. the whole point of a cooperative is that everyone has to put their egos and their own interests aside and act in everyone's interests.

i agree with berger, that going forward, national championships need to stay national. the only exemption in that imo is that british f3 should really include spa. don't know why, maybe it's the weather and that it's not far to travel or something.

i don't know why we say the old concept is lost though. the old concept, that of the past 10 years, was totally wrong and overinflated anyway. trying to rival the euroseries is and always has been silly. we NEED the thruxtons, knockhills and oulton parks. those are what make british motorsport *british*, and completely distinct and seperate to the countries that mostly just have big dull tilkedromes.

i stand by something i said a while ago too. that to compete in the european f3 series, a driver should have to participate in a national one too. german, italian, whatever. that way the european series isn't devalued, but the national ones retain some importance. the national ones need only be 3-4 events, but it's essential that they exist. most fr2.0 eurocup drivers participate in the nec or alps series as well, so it does work, they get maximum tracktime and the budgets aren't too silly.

one bit strikes me as ridiculous though. why should the msa have ever put any money up at all when the european series money is coming from manufacturers?? we're now a nation without a major car builder so we're not going to be able to have the same kind of manufacturer love-in like the dmsb has with mercedes etc. we need to again, think laterally and look at alternatives. you cannot just point at another nation with a different selection of businesses and industry and demand that we have the same as them. you have to operate within our situation and court the relevant areas of finance.

or you accept that the days of britain having anything but a recreational motorsport series are over, and you get on with competing in europe at any level you can get your hands on. we have so much engineering talent in this country. let's use it and nurture the new talent before it gets lost to the world of spreadsheets and data input forever.

This is the result of the 'free market' that operates in motorsport, I can't think of another sport where you can buy your way in at a high level, without going through some sort of formal graduation/promotion basis on the way up.

If you had to accumulate a certain number of top 6 places in a national F3 series before you gained a licence to race in Euro F3, this would keep drivers in national series, probably a more spec British F3 series (single engine like F3 open) is the route, if it is to survive.

On a wider level the FIA need to decide and stipulate what the route to F1 and gaining a superlicence is, with the need for a driver to achieve certain results in each level before moving up.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

This is the result of the 'free market' that operates in motorsport, I can't think of another sport where you can buy your way in at a high level, without going through some sort of formal graduation/promotion basis on the way up.

If you had to accumulate a certain number of top 6 places in a national F3 series before you gained a licence to race in Euro F3, this would keep drivers in national series, probably a more spec British F3 series (single engine like F3 open) is the route, if it is to survive.

On a wider level the FIA need to decide and stipulate what the route to F1 and gaining a superlicence is, with the need for a driver to achieve certain results in each level before moving up.

I totally agree. I've been banging on about this for years to no avail.

The licensing system is the only way you can ensure talent wins out over privilege, now that Berger's in charge maybe he'll listen.

The ridiculous situation where you can go from a Go Kart to a Formula Three car at 16 leaving 95% of your rivals in your wake having never even competed against them is a joke. No wonder the F1 driver market is so messed up.

[peebee2]

So, with two series looking like having 30 car grids, the FIA European F3 and the European F3 Open, perhaps the future of F3 isn't so bad.

With the British expected to stage a mini-revival this year and then maybe a refresh with new lower-cost rules in 2014, that's also a positive.

And, not to forget the German series, even if that continues to struggle a little with grid sizes this season, even having opened up the engine regulations to allow F3 Open and the old F3 Italia FPT motors in.