cleaning the off track bits?

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Spoken like a true Scalextric fan - I can remember setting up my track with a small can of 3-in-1 for the chicanes and cross-overs. Always more fun when you didnt tell you opponent what you had done.

Oh to be on your flag point then... that would cause mayhem but so much fun.

But on a serious note, I wa always told by the stewards that the black is for racing on and if they go onto the ripple strip or of the black stuff then they are casuing themselves to be penalised so we are told to only clean the black stuff. But to contridict myself if there was a large peice of debri off track I would pick it up and move it to the embankment...

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by nomad_n

But on a serious note, I wa always told by the stewards that the black is for racing on and if they go onto the ripple strip or of the black stuff then they are casuing themselves to be penalised so we are told to only clean the black stuff.

Drivers who go off the marked limits of the track are penalised either by losing time or by penalties imposed by the clerks. There's no need for them to suffer unnecessary vehicle damage caused by debris, etc., which could easily have been removed.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Drivers who go off the marked limits of the track are penalised either by losing time or by penalties imposed by the clerks. There's no need for them to suffer unnecessary vehicle damage caused by debris, etc., which could easily have been removed.

I'll agree with that too. I have on occasions found large rocks in the grass where cars are known to run wide and have moved them out of the way. Not just to save a car from damage but to avoid the thing being accidentally thrown at me. I once saw what appeared to be a small piece of debris on the old straight down to the hairpin at Anglesey, near the edge of the track. It was a long way from us but after the session i took the time to walk up there and check it. Turned out to be a rock weighing about 0.5kg, could have easily been clipped by a car and if that had hit a drivers helmet or windscreen...

Water is a tough one. If there are huge puddles of the stuff on curbs then it should at least be reported as a hazard. If the clerks wants to take a closer look or take action then at least we are giving them to chance to. At an F1 event (at least at Silverstone) there is lots of time inbetween sessions so if they want it cleared it should be possible. If they are just damp then i can't see what the fuss would be - curbs aren't renound for being the grippiest part of track at the best of times, so as a driver i'd be trying to avoid them.

[Tall Chris]

Personally I clear anywhere a car might end up of anything I wouldn't like to have flicked up at me at great speed, as for water, if it's wet there will be water.

[cowchap]

Surely its a question of the best use of time-the track being obviously the most important.
Would anybody want to hold up a session whilst they cleared a puddle 5 feet from the edge of the track or seached the gravel for bricks bigger than regulation size?

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by cowchap

Would anybody want to hold up a session whilst they.... seached the gravel for bricks bigger than regulation size?

"Use the correct material. Uncrushed 5-15mm river washed stone uniformly distributed, or equivalent." - Symes, J

No Kentish flints the size of your fist then?
usually something I like removed at the start of the day

[Woolley]

Big bits of rock do seem to work their way to the surface somehow. I presume they're ploughed up from the bottom.

[TFHarv]

This argument is a little academic regardless of the points made. Is it not true that track inspections took place before any vehicle hits the circuit to determine if there are any problems that need to be addressed.

If they deemed the water to be a problem with the circuit then it would have been radioed over to that post to be dealt with before the first session.


If the post chief had been informed of the water on the curbs by his I/O or course marshals he would have taken action or if not able to make the decision there and then, report this to Race control and they could discuss if any action was necessary.

So as there was no mention of the problem beforehand there should be no need to take any further action as it would have been assessed by at least 3 sets of people and deemed safe.

The marshals having seen 2 cars go off via standing water re-evaluated the lines being taken and decided (with or without race control involvement) that it would be in the events best interests to clear this section of track to prevent any further incidents from the daft drivers that couldn't work out where the white lines stopped.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by TFHarv

So as there was no mention of the problem beforehand there should be no need to take any further action as it would have been assessed by at least 3 sets of people and deemed safe.

These things aren't clear-cut. Just because the track hasn't been deemed unsafe to race is there any real excuse for not doing what we can within the time available & with the equipment at our disposal to improve matters? Very often standing water fills back in as soon as you brush it away, but you don't know until you've tried!

[Bodysnatcher]

I find a good academic arguement makes you think.

This thread was started because I would (up until this discussion) never have thought about brushing out puddles of water between humps in the kerbing, even though my regular post has quite a bit of illegally used kerbing right in front of it.
BBC's Friday commentator (I think it was Ant) thought marshals should have done something about it, & when Ledgard(sp?) rehashed it on Saturday, Brundle basically said it's not something he expected marshals to do.

Hey ho.. just something to add to the list for Silverstone, but I'm sure the IO will have it under control.

[TFHarv]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

These things aren't clear-cut. Just because the track hasn't been deemed unsafe to race is there any real excuse for not doing what we can within the time available & with the equipment at our disposal to improve matters? Very often standing water fills back in as soon as you brush it away, but you don't know until you've tried!

I did state that the marshals or I/O should have seen the water on their inspection of the sector (which I would hope they did properly) and dealt with it accordingly.

If the water was to have been detrimental to normal race lines or overtaking areas etc then you would hope the marshals manning the post would see this as a hazard and deal with it beforehand as you quite rightly point out.

These things are not, as stated, always clear-cut but I would expect that at the level they are racing the marshals would have the appropriate experience to make the right judgement call and manage their sector correctly or pass the decision up to race control if they want more time or further help. They wouldn't be trainees (unless the rules are different in Spain) so you would certainly expect them to know how to do there jobs.

I was defending the fact that the commentator was suggesting the marshals had not done enough to avoid the incidents. If the rules to marshalling a F1 GP are to be followed they would clearly have the experience to make the correct call and I tried to re-enforce this by pointing out the amount of qualified eyes that would have assessed the track before racing commenced.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by TFHarv

If the water was to have been detrimental to normal race lines or overtaking areas etc then you would hope the marshals manning the post would see this as a hazard and deal with it beforehand as you quite rightly point out.

So you have a downpour in the middle of the day and then it brightens up - bit like the BTCC at Brands.... Do you then go out and brush the water off the track ? Remember these are ment to be the *best* racing drivers in the world...

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by mini1400

So you have a downpour in the middle of the day and then it brightens up - bit like the BTCC at Brands.... Do you then go out and brush the water off the track ? Remember these are ment to be the *best* racing drivers in the world...

Yes - we did at Surtees. The track was filling with water, so the edge of the track was swept to try and aid with drainage. We could do nothing about the small river that was flowing across the track - but clearing the drainage certainly helped to reduce that.

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Yes - we did at Surtees. The track was filling with water, so the edge of the track was swept to try and aid with drainage. We could do nothing about the small river that was flowing across the track - but clearing the drainage certainly helped to reduce that.

I remember a rainy day at Surtees a couple of years ago at the WTCC.

We had a bit of a river across the track at our post (just after the entry to the GP loop, in case I've got my names wrong) so we did a bit of sweeping.

The following race, several cars spun going into the previous corner (post 9, can't remember corner name)... All the water that we'd swept off the track had run down the edge of the grass and across the track at the bottom of the hill.

You can't always win.

PJ

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Yes - we did at Surtees. The track was filling with water, so the edge of the track was swept to try and aid with drainage. We could do nothing about the small river that was flowing across the track - but clearing the drainage certainly helped to reduce that.

That's when the track is flooded, but what about when there is a dry line or the track is almost dry? You'll always get bits that stay wet for longer, do you sweep those up every time?

[Woolley]

If there's a problem causing pools to form, try to clear the problem. If everything's stopped because of excess water collecting on track, see if there's anything you can do to shift it. In all other circumstances, it's just water.

[Stuart Hill]

I'll probably upset someone here, but hey, what's new?

I honestly believe that our duties as Marshals (regarding the state of the track) are the following:

Warn Drivers of potential dangers and remove dangers where possible.

By Dangers I mean;

Stopped car,
Spinning Car,
Debris (from car)
Oil etc,
other debris thrown onto race tarmac. (gravel from spinning car)

I will check my zone between sessions but, if the stewards have gone by on their inspection and found no faults, then my zone is safe to race.

If some of the area beyond the "Track" (as defined by the white lines on the tarmac) is not suitable for racing, then guess what???? stay the hell off it!!!!

We marshals will endeavour to keep the "Track" clean but if you as a driver go beyond the limits, then it's up to you what happens.

In NO WAY AT ALL should we be made responsible for a driver using the "kerbs" and then having a problem. How many drivers have hit kerbs and then had an accident? was it the marshal's fault that the kerbs were too high, to slippery or too wet?????

just stay off them drivers and use what is yours,............. the Black Stuff.

[White flag man]

Stuart,
let's not forget that some drivers end up off line through no fault of their own (nudged by other competitors, mechanical failure etc), so in order to prevent them/their cars being more damaged, risk of injury to marshals/spectators, then, IMO, debris, large rocks that are off the circuit should be moved to a safer place. As for water, presumably if there's water off line then it is or has been raining, something which all competitors will be aware of, so I personally would leave it. Only exception to that may be if the track is now dry enough to use slicks, which melt to the track surface and, as we've seen in F1 recently, if anything breaks that bond (i.e water) things can get pretty dangerous.

[Steven Humphrey]

So what would you do at Silverstone on the inside of Luffield? For those that aren't aware, this is just dirt now, which has been grass seeded. However, when it rains heavily (as it did overnight during the FIA GT weekend) it turns to very sticky and deep mud. Any car going in at speed sideways is likely to roll (as the Mosler did during Dutch Supercars along the pit straight, which is the same surface). A single seater going in at speed would be horrendous. Personally, I think it's a good deterrent, far fewer cars go off there now than when it was tarmac & grass. Just interested what others think....

[White flag man]

Send for the coastguard!

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Send for the coastguard!

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by White flag man

let's not forget that some drivers end up off line through no fault of their own (nudged by other competitors, mechanical failure etc), so in order to prevent them/their cars being more damaged, risk of injury to marshals/spectators, then, IMO, debris, large rocks that are off the circuit should be moved to a safer place.

Absolutely correct in as far as rocks etc. Some water between rumble strips..... get real.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Just interested what others think....

If you're there because of you............... tough luck, shouldn't be there.
If you're there because of someone else's mistake, it's racing and unfortunately, tough luck.

either way....................... Black bits yours, All others ours and enter at your own risk.

[Woolley]

Exit of Copse for F3 looked interesting on TV. That puddle would take more than a little sweeping.