[ELMS] ELMS (was LMS) 2012 discussion

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by lms

Unbeliavable. LMS had more than 50 cars just two years ago; mostly privateers in lmp1 and lmp2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Le_Mans_Series_season

but, at that time there was no world championship

A significant number of them did just a race or two.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Le Castellet, Zolder, Donington, Brno, Portimao

Portimão?! Are you sure of that?

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Portimão?! Are you sure of that?

A very good source says so!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

A very good source says so!

I believe so...

Just wondering from where the money comes from.
Portimão Circuit Director said in the end of 2010 that the LMS was to much expensive, but 40% of the budget came from public funding...
There is no more public funding.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

WEC at Silverstone, LMS at Donington? Seems pretty pointless to me, why not race together? Are either races going to have more than 20 - 25 cars, realistically?

Yeah I think both will probably have more cars than that. I think the WEC were estimating a conservative 28 car full-season entry. I reckon they'll get a couple more before you begin to flesh out the grid with locals.

Really couldn't tell you about LMS but with the GTC-class they should be able to hit 25 cars I'd say.

[AndrewF31]

Kind of 'shocked' Portugal is on there but I won't complain!

[Pandamasque]

Prototypes at Zolder would be something to behold

[Down F0rce]

Any thoughts on dates for the LMS? I might try and make both UK endurance races...

[MitchZ06]

Forgot the GFC have we?...

[Simmi]

Are you being deliberately pessimistic Fogelhund or have you genuinely not seen all the WEC entry announcements?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Are you being deliberately pessimistic Fogelhund or have you genuinely not seen all the WEC entry announcements?

What maybe 13-15 LMP1, plus another 15 spread amongst the other classes? Is there anything of note in GT, besides AF Corsa at this point? Isn't that about correct? So five or six LMP1 of note (Toyota(maybe), Peugeot and Audi), plus what will end up being filler in this field, plus 15-17 other cars spread amongst 4 classes.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

What maybe 13-15 LMP1, plus another 15 spread amongst the other classes? Is there anything of note in GT, besides AF Corsa at this point? Isn't that about correct? So five or six LMP1 of note (Toyota(maybe), Peugeot and Audi), plus what will end up being filler in this field, plus 15-17 other cars spread amongst 4 classes.

LMP2 seems to shape up quite well in WEC, actually... I am not completely surr who alrray announced their programs and what is still rumors at this point, but I' be very surprised to see less than 6 or 8 P2-cars in WEC - more for the European rounds due to LMS-cross overs...

GT will have AF Corse, Aston with the Vantages and one Pro-Corvette for Labre, so that looks like a pretty good pointy end of the field for me. Rumor also has it that Manthey will be there with one or more Porsches.

[Rodger Davies]

so much of this speculation is being treated as fact; I hope it comes off and I'll be delighted to be wrong, but Fogelhund's post #36 absolutely sums up my feelings about the WEC and sportscar/endurance racing at the moment perfectly.

Furthermore, I fear for GTE regulations as the market for these cars, compared to GT3 equipment, appears to be dwindling more by the year.

[JAG]

As good as the past 10-15 years have been I think it's pretty depressing if you need to look back decades for the sports last golden era, and to then come to the conclussion the sport should no longer aspire to be a World Championship, it shouldn't look to push technological boundaries, it should take the easy, more often than not, mediocre route.

Sportscar racing now has the opportunity to not only provide entertainment, but be an integral part of road car development, that's what gives the current movement substance, it isn't just an F1 wannabe or GT1 like flash in the pan.

It says a lot about how far the sport has come that some national GT series are far healthier than what was top level BPR GT in the mid-'90's, if you don't grasp the opportunity now all you'll be left with are the history books while you sit back and watch F1 and NASCAR grab all the headlines.

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Furthermore, I fear for GTE regulations as the market for these cars, compared to GT3 equipment, appears to be dwindling more by the year.

This was an area covered on RLM's broadcast this morning, the feeling is, as cool as it would be to have the SLS, the GT3 formula is heading for a world of hurt if a cap isn't put on development, the example given was an update kit requirement for 458's that are less than 12 months old. A GTE is what you'll need if you wish to run at Le Mans, it's why the Mclaren, Viper and possibly others like the LFA are in development.

[Simmi]

It's weakening the ALMS. Impossible to say it's weakening the sport before the first round has kicked off.

[JAG]

Sportscar racing in NA is destroyng itself as single-seaters did, and it all started years before the WEC was dreamed up, the rumoured GTE drain is due to GA GT3's and US DTM (if it happens).

Without the WEC Audi and Peugeot would have been racing a couple of times per year, that's if they were still in the sport, without them you could kiss goodbye to Porsche, Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc.

There's no reason to suggest the LMS won't improve next year, it isn't comparable with the ALMS, Blancpain is it's direct competition as it's competitor focused with European endurance races and similar cars. Two European series which should each see healthy grids and be backed up by national series like ADAC, French and British GT.

WEC will be the pinnacle for teams currently competing in the series mentioned previously, there'll also be interest from single seater and touring car teams and drivers.

The ALMS wants to play a similar role in NA, but local manufactuers and importers aren't backing the series, some are even are backing it's direct rivals, while the days of Indycar teams and drivers running ALMS programs seem well and truly gone.

It's a global economy, with global media coverage, the ALMS still seem to think they can put together a world class WEC rival consisting of a dozen rounds in NA, it can't happen. They either need to slash the number of rounds and encourage some of the big players to do dual WEC/ALMS campaigns, or follow the LMS model.

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It's weakening the ALMS. Impossible to say it's weakening the sport before the first round has kicked off.

LMS doesn't even have an LMP1 class anymore if I remember correctly (unless that's been changed?). If so, I'd say the LMS has been significantly weakened as well.

[Marcel ten Caat]

No LMP1 in Le Mans Series 2012 is correct. Doesn't really change a lot compared to this season though.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

LMS doesn't even have an LMP1 class anymore if I remember correctly (unless that's been changed?). If so, I'd say the LMS has been significantly weakened as well.

This is why it's a mistake to compare LMS with the ALMS, LMP1's didn't attract fans to the LMS, races aren't really marketed. As I stated above, it's a similar story with Blancpain, it could have spectacular grids in 2012, grids that would draw big crowds in a heavily promoted NA series, but the series will draw one man and his dog.

These series will be high quality and highly competive, but they serve the dual purpose of giving an arena for amateur drivers and helping young pro drivers and teams develop, ultimately to step-up to the WEC or ALMS.

[AndrewF31]

Wouldn't be surprised if LMS avoids the 2 European WEC dates to allow the cars to compete in those European races.

With Brno in September and Portimão in November, we could have Le Castellet in March/April with Zolder and Donington spread between late April to July/August.

Plenty of holes to fit in a Spa race in May and a Silverstone race in August.

[lms]

What lola toyota? the lmp1 car? damn, it would be so great if more tams would use the "rebellion chassis".

[Fogelhund]

johndagys John Dagys
With no calendar announcement and only a handful of confirmed entries, I'm getting very concerned over the future of the Le Mans Series #LMS

..

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

..

Well, it's tough. LMS is a mainly Pro-Am series now and without an official schedule, the Am pay drivers and team owners can't really figure out whether they can race or not. This is why the suggestion that the ALMS should wait to finalize their schedule after the WEC schedule is released so silly.

Anyway, we'll see. There's still a good possibility that LMS GTE-Pro will be better or just as good as WEC GT-P. We'll have to see what the Porsche teams decide and if AF Corse or whoever decide to field an LMS -Pro team. LMP2 is to be seen. Boutsen, TDS, and company may stay in the LMS, but maybe they are considering WEC options as well. The biggest problem with LMS (LMP2 in particular) is that it will be virtually impossible to get a guaranteed Le Mans entry in the LMS.

[Accident]

Didn't Boutsen get a pair of McLarens? Not sure how that would affect the LMP2 program.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Lebanza

Didn't Boutsen get a pair of McLarens? Not sure how that would affect the LMP2 program.

the oreca 03 used by boutsen this year is the same chassis that team oreca matmut used to run at le mans, so there is a concrete possibility that their oreca 03 has never been "their" but was just in leasing.