Is One Series, Again, A Possibility?

[climb]

It would certainly be a double success for TG: taking over Cart's deal without spending the lotta money he should have spent, had he won the bid on last february.

[Testure]

Of course there is the possibility of one series, yes. The Champ Car situation is looking quite difficult. It's not done 'n dusted quite yet, though.

Perhaps the more interesting question is whether there can be one fan base any more. GP Racer has talked about the bad feeling for Tony George that there is among Champ Car fans. I actually don't think that internet message boards give a true indication of the general feeling in the community and don't believe that Tony George is what's holding Champ Car fans back from "moving over". I think that the bigger problem is the Indy Car series itself and the fact that, at the moment anyway, it's 100% oval. These days, most Champ Car fans are road-racing fans (much like the drivers in both series themselves!) I question whether it's possible for the remaining fans to enjoy Indy Car unless it has a majority of road-races.

Your thoughts? Speaking personally, I just can't stand oval racing. No matter how many times I've tried to "get into" it over the past ten years or so, I just can't. The reasons don't really matter, but I can't see myself becoming an Indy Car fan with only 3/4 road-races.

[boom boom]

Originally posted by Testure
Your thoughts? Speaking personally, I just can't stand oval racing. No matter how many times I've tried to "get into" it over the past ten years or so, I just can't. The reasons don't really matter, but I can't see myself becoming an Indy Car fan with only 3/4 road-races.

I couldnt agree with you more. You need a good mix (50/50) to get more fans back. I will even take 40/60 TG wont get many fans in with jsut 3or 4 races... we could watch nascar if we wanted to see and all oval series race a couple road courses.

Thoush I am sad to see Adrian leave champ cars, this thought had crept into my mind... How many teams, owners and drivers are ex CART? The big teams are all ex CART and they like raod racing... if enough of TG's car owners stand togheter and say this is where we need to go... we might see a few more raod courses than TG would like and I think that is a good thing... a 50/50 mix is the best way to have a open wheel series

[climb]

Well I think that, at the moment, it's impossible to add to the schedule many road courses.
But in the mid term the most important road races will be scheduled IMO.
For now it's tumoured that TG wants to stop the aero development of the cars in order to let the teams have the money to purchase the road kit, and that's a first step.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by boom boom


Thoush I am sad to see Adrian leave champ cars, this thought had crept into my mind... How many teams, owners and drivers are ex CART? The big teams are all ex CART and they like raod racing... if enough of TG's car owners stand togheter and say this is where we need to go... we might see a few more raod courses than TG would like and I think that is a good thing... a 50/50 mix is the best way to have a open wheel series

There's a big difference between the way CART was run and the IRL is.

Team owners made the rules in CART, but in the IRL, Tony George makes them, and that is not likely to change. TG despises that form of mangement, and thinks it doesn't work.

I think there will be changes to the series, but I think they will come carefully and slowly. I don't think TG is going to be in any rush to recreate what CART was. He cannot afford to alienate his core fans, many of whom like the all-oval series just the way it is. I think CART fans will have to accept that 4 or 5 road races, are all there going to see for awhile, or they'll have to move on to other things. Even if TG can get only about half of the CART fans to watch the IRL, which I think he will, the series will become successful.

[mountainstar]

If TG is running the show you can count a lot of fans out. And with the current finance numbers, tv ratings and fan attendence for the irl, the irl is not exactly taking the world by storm.

If there is some sort of compromise between the two series I can see one series happening. But now with tg and honda trying to buy out cart teams to cause a owrs collapse is not going to put owrs principals in a negiotiating mood. It is going to be a battle to the death. Total war all the way.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by mountainstar
If TG is running the show you can count a lot of fans out. And with the current finance numbers, tv ratings and fan attendence for the irl, the irl is not exactly taking the world by storm.

If there is some sort of compromise between the two series I can see one series happening. But now with tg and honda trying to buy out cart teams to cause a owrs collapse is not going to put owrs principals in a negiotiating mood. It is going to be a battle to the death. Total war all the way.

For the fans that don't come over, the ones that will use there "anger" at TG as an excuse, I say take your anger, and have a nice life. This series doesn't need them. To the ones that do, I say great, lets look to the future and see what comes out.

As for TG and Honda buying out CART teams, I'd like to see the proof, because right now, I don't see any. And who really cares if the OWRS "principles" are not in a negotiating mood? They have little left to negotiate. Does anyone on the CART side, see that the 3 amigo's just might not have their act together, and all there offering teams is fools gold? Or maybe they do have their act together, but CART is just beyond the point of resusitation, and its time to mercifully pull the plug? CART doesn't need any help collapsing, as its doing so under the weight of its own problems. Stop using TG as a deflection from the real problems that are effecting it.

Why don't you ask why the OWRS principles have invested so little of there fortunes in this venture? Weren't they going to do "whatever it takes"? Why don't you ask them, why they havn't even spoken to there teams, since they've taken over? What about all of PG's promises, that aren't happening? There are a million questions that should be asked of these guys, but no, everyone still wants to bash TG and this series.

Sorry, I'm babbling, and I don't mean to single you out, but I've come to enjoy this series, its drivers, teams and fans, and I guess I'm alittle defensive of that.

[macdaddy]

I don't think that TG has had anything to do with the recent teams that have switched leagues.
Honda, on the other hand...
Wasn't it "big news" not very long ago, that the engine manufacturers were already stretched to their limit, and could have difficulty supplying new teams? (Esp for Indy)? Seems that Honda has found a few extras in their warehouse!
But, as I say, I don't believe that TG had anything to do with this, although pointing the finger at him is pretty easy to do. He was just the guy sitting in the background, smiling.

[MLM]

True, IMO
I think this suit will go nowhere. Unfortunately, IMO, it seems to be the "last ditch" effort for OWRS to gain any semblance of credibility.

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by mountainstar
If TG is running the show you can count a lot of fans out. And with the current finance numbers, tv ratings and fan attendence for the irl, the irl is not exactly taking the world by storm.

If there is some sort of compromise between the two series I can see one series happening

There is a need for 1 series, a merged series, as neither series IRL or OWRS is a strong enough and solid enough product to compete in the market place. How we are ever going to get our goal, the mind boggles but i suppose I can hope for the best

[Teretonga]

While the racing in the IRL is on the edge and far more exciting than some of the street circuit processions at CART over the last few years the series are quite different in the direction they are taking. OWRS seems to be heading toward a US based international road racing series and the IRL towards a the domestic oval scene. In reality a 'united' series may be just as disastrous for the US open wheeler scene as the scenario of the last eight years. The present 'war' is only because of peoples ego's and the determination of neither side to 'give in' to the other sides philosophy.

The only way a united series is going to arise at the moment is the demise of the other. That means a huge financial loss to owners of one or the others cars and a large loss of confidence in the management of alll open wheel racing by sponsors who got burnt. TG is only considering road racing as a counter to OWRS and because he has drivers bred and desiring road racing as a major expression of the art of driving. The present strength of the IRL has only come about because of the defection of the engine manufacturers to the IRL after CART wrecked their relationships with Toyota and Honda. That has brought price inflation that has wrecked the original dream of an 'all american style open wheel series' to the point where the IRL mirrors the very thing TG hated so much and wanted to change away from. Then a major shift in the teams occurred. Penske had already gone at the behest of Marlboro, but Marlboro may be gone soon anyway (Ciggie woes). How many sponsors from outside the open wheel scene are going to pour money into a series that outside of Indy has pretty average sort of attendances and little TV following?

OWRS on the other hand has to try to resurrect the scarcely breathing corpse of what was 10-12 years ago the BEST open wheel series in the world without having a major component of what endeared CART to America (and other parts of the world)-the oval race. Now its just another almost spec vehicle road race series like innumerable others (F3000, Nissan Euroseries, the new A1 series, Renault V6).
TG will lose a major part of his 'drive' to promote the series if OWRS falters and then have no incentive to spend what is necessary to return open wheeler racing to real prominence. He'll just settle for the Indy 500 and a few good supporting event as a series, and the money tap may be turned off or alot more restricted. The value of US open wheel racing will reduce as the rest of the world turns its back on the primarily oval series till American open wheel racing becomes the backwater (outside of Indy) that it was (in terms of international perspective) before CART ever emerged.

[Testure]

Champ Car is doomed because it's dug itself into a huge hole/crater.
Indy Car is doomed because it hasn't even begun to realise that it's dug itself into a hole.

Champ Car will survive because it's working to dig itself out of it's hole.
Indy Car will survive because it has the Indy 500.

That about covers it.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Testure
Champ Car is doomed because it's dug itself into a huge hole/crater.
Indy Car is doomed because it hasn't even begun to realise that it's dug itself into a hole.

Champ Car will survive because it's working to dig itself out of it's hole.
Indy Car will survive because it has the Indy 500.

That about covers it.

Not quite.

IndyCar has quite abit more than just the Indy 500 to ensure its survival.

1-They have the best TV package in racing, next to NASCAR.
2-They have 3 major engine suppliers.
3-They have 2 competitive chassis suppliers.
4-They have the strongest teams in open-wheel racing.
5-They have big name, big time drivers.
6-They are the only open wheel series doing ovals.
7-They have good sponsorship.
8-They have a series owner with money, and connections.
9-They will add road racing.
10-And yes, they will always have the Indy 500!

IF, and thats a big if, they use these strengths properly, this series could really start taking off. I've got my fingers crossed!

PS-Great post Teretonga!

[Ac.]

Originally posted by GP Racer
IndyCar has quite abit more than just the Indy 500 to ensure its survival.

1-They have the best TV package in racing, next to NASCAR.
2-They have 3 major engine suppliers.
3-They have 2 competitive chassis suppliers.
4-They have the strongest teams in open-wheel racing.
5-They have big name, big time drivers.
6-They are the only open wheel series doing ovals.
7-They have good sponsorship.
8-They have a series owner with money, and connections.
9-They will add road racing.
10-And yes, they will always have the Indy 500!

IF, and thats a big if, they use these strengths properly, this series could really start taking off. I've got my fingers crossed!

Big if is right GP Racer. The reality is that 1, 2, and 7 in your list have peaked for the IRL, the best opportunity to grow is past.

When the current TV package expires the IRL will find itself in a very difficult place. Ratings for the IRL are abysmal, and viewership of their showpiece Indy 500 has slipped every year since the split. Revenue to the IRL from TV will shrink dramatically unless they find a way to increase viewership.

They currently have 3 engine manufacturers(4 if you count Cosworth supplying for Chevy), but what happens when Toyota takes their cash and bolts to Na$car. Honda is not a sure bet to stick around either, their history with all series has been here today...gone tomorrow. Even worse for the IRL, Toyota leaving and the TV package expiration will take place at the same time.

Good sponsorship is there right now, but how long will it stay if ratings continue to be in the dumps.

Finally, if Tony keeps monkeying with the 500, then I'm afraid he'll ruin his best asset. Oh to see the 500 return to the days when it stood alone as a race outside of a particular series, when it attracted racers from many disciplines, when it was the best race in the world. Too bad it's just another IRL race now...

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Ac.
Oh to see the 500 return to the days when it stood alone as a race outside of a particular series, when it attracted racers from many disciplines

The problem today is that the racing climate overall has gotten tougher and more hectic (as well as more strict). Formula 1 drivers are excluded because their teams don't want to let them take part (even though I'm quite sure a few of them would like to give Indy a shot), and while Robby Gordon (and John Andretti) is set to join in from the stock car ranks, others like Tony Stewart decided not to because the current NEXTEL Cup schedule (including everything off the track as well) takes so much time and effort.

Oh, and the Indy 500 will never be "just another race" - the track and its unique challenges is the same as it has always been, and throughout the history of the Indy 500 it has been more common to race the track itself, trying to find the optimal settings, trying to keep your car in one piece and trying to keep the mechanical gremlins off your back, rather than racing your fellow competitors.

[mountainstar]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Not quite.

IndyCar has quite abit more than just the Indy 500 to ensure its survival.

1-They have the best TV package in racing, next to NASCAR.
2-They have 3 major engine suppliers.
3-They have 2 competitive chassis suppliers.
4-They have the strongest teams in open-wheel racing.
5-They have big name, big time drivers.
6-They are the only open wheel series doing ovals.
7-They have good sponsorship.
8-They have a series owner with money, and connections.
9-They will add road racing.
10-And yes, they will always have the Indy 500!

IF, and thats a big if, they use these strengths properly, this series could really start taking off. I've got my fingers crossed!

PS-Great post Teretonga!

1-They have the best TV package in racing, next to NASCAR.
With 0.6 ratings on a network that every american has access to, they will not have the big tv deal for long.

2-They have 3 major engine suppliers.
True, but for how long? And weren't these the same gang that gave cart problems? In any case, I thought the irl was supposed to be about the small time engine builders in Indy and not about car manufacturers. That was one the main points of the original "vision"

3-They have 2 competitive chassis suppliers.
I would hope so.

4-They have the strongest teams in open-wheel racing.
Compared to who?

5-They have big name, big time drivers.
Vitor Meira, Kosuke Matsuura- Good ole boy USAC oval racing legends. NASCAR has big name, big time drivers.

6-They are the only open wheel series doing ovals.
Is that the best thing?

7-They have good sponsorship.
TG, Honda, Toyota, Target and Marlboro. Take that away and you don't have much left.

8-They have a series owner with money, and connections.
That may be part of the problem.

9-They will add road racing.
Uh.. I thought you just mentioned above one of the strengths of the irl is that it only races on ovals?!?

10-And yes, they will always have the Indy 500!
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Therefore if no one watches the 500 on tv or at the track does it matter? Fact is, tv ratings and attendence in the month of may have been cut in half since 1995.
--------------------

I take exception to your comment:
"The CART/OWRS fans have been so malicious, hateful, and distasteful to everything concerning Tony George, the IRL, its drivers, teams, sponsors, and fans, that I'm not sure Tony owes them anything."

For starters, I don't want anything from Mr. George. Second irl fans have not exactly been a peaceful mob, have they? Read trackforum.

I think some on both sides get emotionally charged and understandably so. To me it's just business and I enjoy a good debate. I think OWRS is right and the irl is wrong. I don't want a unified series. But to be fair and settle it all, I propose a duel between Gentilozzi and Big Tony at the finish line at "indy". Winner takes all.

[Testure]

Originally posted by GP Racer
IndyCar has quite abit more than just the Indy 500 to ensure its survival.

*snip*

I won't argue whether or not those strengths are valid, because my point was that they're all based on the league having the Indy 500. Think at a higher level: without the Indy 500, all of those "strengths" would be either gone in the blink of an eye or count for nothing. The challenge for the league is to leverage the strength of that one race, which it may or may not be doing a good job at.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by mountainstar

9-They will add road racing.
Uh.. I thought you just mentioned above one of the strengths of the irl is that it only races on ovals?!?

Uhm, read it again - he wrote that IndyCar is the only open-wheel series with ovals, not that it only runs on ovals.

While that isn't exactly true since Champ Car (which is what you are to compare with), after all, does have one oval left, it almost is since having just one oval is almost like having no ovals at all.

Overall I think it's quite clear you have no other interest on the matter other than trying to get a heated flame-war started.

I mean, c'mon, your comment on the IndyCar drivers is just silly - it's like talking about NASCAR and mentioning Kevin Lepage, Kirk Shelmerdine and Morgan Shepherd and say "See? NASCAR doesn't have any top drivers either."

[Tim Northcutt]

Two Quick Notes:

1. The TV ratings for the Indy 500 are usually in the neighborhood of 10.0 - 14.0....last year, the Indy 500 had a better rating and share than NASCAR's Coca-Cola 600...even though NASCAR's event was in Prime Time in the evening.....and

2. The IRL gets PAID for its telecasts.....does the "other" Series????

All along the TV contract for the IRL has been tied to the Indy 500....and it has been a long-time tradition for ABC Sports....I don't see them going away that easily....

[GP Racer]

We can do the "what if" game for days on this subject, you know, Honda will leave, the TV package won't be renewed, sponsorship will leave, etc, etc., but the truth is, right now, the IRL has alot of positives going for it, period.

As for the Indy 500, you guys can make believe, or stick your heads in the sand, about its importance, but the fact is, even with declining ratings, its still the biggest race in America, if not the world. Only NASCAR can rival it with a couple of races. Every open wheel driver and team owner wants to be there, and for most, its still a life-long dream. The Indy 500, is to open wheel racing, what LeMans is to sports car racing, and Monaco is to F1.

None of us know's what the future will bring, but we do know about the here and now, and it looks pretty good.

[mountainstar]

Originally posted by rustyfan

Overall I think it's quite clear you have no other interest on the matter other than trying to get a heated flame-war started.

Not at all, I just call it as I see it. What's the point of being on a forum if you can't debate and exchange ideas?

[mountainstar]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Two Quick Notes:

1. The TV ratings for the Indy 500 are usually in the neighborhood of 10.0 - 14.0....last year, the Indy 500 had a better rating and share than NASCAR's Coca-Cola 600...even though NASCAR's event was in Prime Time in the evening.....and

2. The IRL gets PAID for its telecasts.....does the "other" Series????

All along the TV contract for the IRL has been tied to the Indy 500....and it has been a long-time tradition for ABC Sports....I don't see them going away that easily....

1. Last year the Indy 500 drew a 4.8 rating nationwide on ABC. In 1993 the rating was 10.9 nationwide on ABC. That's a huge drop. Those figures are freely available on the internet.

2. True the irl currently gets paid for its telecasts and cart does not. But not for long. The average infomercial on one of the networks shown sunday afternoon will pull a 1.0-1.5 rating. Those infomercials are time buys. If the IRL continues to bumble around below a 1.0 rating, it will not be long before abc/espn pulls the plug. Thats not my opinion, that is a financial reality.

I would agree that ABC Sports probably considers having the 500 a jewel in it's crown and no, I don't think they will up and walk away, but the financial terms will have to change.

[Testure]

Just on the topic of TV ratings, I thought I'd do 2 minutes of rooting around the web for some stats and came up with a couple of interesting links:

Here's a site from a gentleman with TV ratings going back a loooong time: http://www.geocities.com/johnsonindy...500/imstv.html The rest of the site contains more stats than I'd have thought it humanly possible to collect Fantastic stuff.

A opinion column on Valvoline's site about How To Fix Indy Car TV RAtings I haven't a notion who the author is, but it's an enjoyable read. The rest of his/her articles are also interesting. Might be worth an occasional look.

More TV ratings: http://jayski.thatsracin.com/pages/tvratings.htm Mostly NASCAR, though.


The internet is great for this kind of thing. I've read articles in online newspapers from 94/95/96 and it's really interesting to read quotes from the drivers of the time.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by mountainstar
1. Last year the Indy 500 drew a 4.8 rating nationwide on ABC. In 1993 the rating was 10.9 nationwide on ABC. That's a huge drop. Those figures are freely available on the internet.

2. True the irl currently gets paid for its telecasts and cart does not. But not for long. The average infomercial on one of the networks shown sunday afternoon will pull a 1.0-1.5 rating. Those infomercials are time buys. If the IRL continues to bumble around below a 1.0 rating, it will not be long before abc/espn pulls the plug. Thats not my opinion, that is a financial reality.

I would agree that ABC Sports probably considers having the 500 a jewel in it's crown and no, I don't think they will up and walk away, but the financial terms will have to change.

I think its possible that the Indy 500 has seen the bottom, and is now ready to climb back up in the ratings, the attendance, and its prominence.

My reason for feeling this way, is simply because of the state of Champ Cars this year. I think it will be a very tough year for them, as they struggle to get drivers, cars, and sponsors in place, and they will be nearly invisible with there TV package. The big name defections to the League will also hurt them, no matter what kind of spin OWRS puts out about it. I also feel, that while they certainly have a hard-core base of fans, they will have lost quite a few to the IRL. I'm quite sure that many have tired of watching this debacle go on, and they just want to sit down and root for a series with some stability, big name drivers, and teams, and real good, close racing.

The drivers and teams listed for this years Indy 500 look impressive, and with some late entries coming in, we'll have a proper Bump Day. It's shaping up to be a good one.

No matter your opinion of the IRL and Tony George, I hate to see people root against the Indy 500. Is its decline good for anyone? :confused:

[D.R.T.]

Couldn't it also be said that Champ Car has reached the bottom if its decine and could be on the way up again