JGTC to visit Laguna Seca

[RacingManiac]

I find that article rather ignorant of the subject while completely ignoring the fact of severe engine restriction in JGTC....

[Burd]

Well, I don't believe it was intended to be a detailed technical bulletin...

[Burd]

The restrictors serve to bring the cars closer together in terms of overall performance, but it is the weight handicaps that are responsible for variations in the grid and in the results. Would it take longer for similar variations to progress in the ALMS because the cars are not "squeezed into the same bottle" so to speak? Yes, but variances eventually *would* occur, and that is what the author was primarily getting at. At least, that is my "ignorant" assumption .

Without the weight handicap system in place, the Mobil NSX would have most likely run away with the championship in 2002, restrictors or no.

[RacingManiac]

The SPEED WC GT uses the similar system, it did not stop Gallati from winning the championship in too much less than dominating style....

Its the whole idea of making something like McLaren with both hand tied behind its back while giving cars like NSX a pair of extra fists to "fight" that makes the series quite rediculous in my opinion...

[neilap]

The Audi has much more factory backing than the rest of the teams in Speed GT. That is why they win. Also, the title was not won until the last race so it was not exactly a runaway victory.

The NSX is not given any extra benefits at all. Doesnt the Mclaren come with about twice the displacement of the NSX's. Also Nissan and Toyota were running turbo cars. At places like Fuji that came into play hugely. The NSX has better aerodynamic efficiency than the other cars and better balance. However Toyota and Nissan definately have the power advantage. When another manufacturer enters a full works entry, not an HKS or Yellow Corn entry, they will also be able to be more competitive. We all know that when it comes down to it, money talks.

I thought the author of the article has a good point. The ALMS needs to do something.

[RacingManiac]

McLaren was fitted with extra small restrictor to cut power to the level which NSX was brought up to, think about it, the stock McLaren has 627 bhp, now it is probably in the sub 500level. While the NSX has been brought up to that level...to make things look equal.....

The normal idea of GT racing is you can somewhat relate the ability of respective car back to their street trim. If NSX wins championship, does that mean it is faster than McLaren?

ALMS needs something done yes, but not through artificial leveling of the field, it was never the case with sportscar at all....

[IanGrohse]

Originally posted by RacingManiac
C5R's original design was different from the stock drivetrain by having the gearbox to behind the engine. The current layout with the transaxle was actually the stock Vette's layout....

Fairly stock in the sense that yes it is from a stock block, but the engine have seen years of racing duty in the WRC Corolla, which is where they sourced it from.....

Im sorry, I just think this is an outragous argument, and im not even sure what you are arguing....
The engine is modified in the way ALL engines are modified for racing. The 3sgte has been around, and been tuned for ALL types of racing, INCLUDING road racing for about 15 years........and in fact, it was tested and tuned in LeMans and proto efforts the same time it apeared in rally.

Are you saying the 3sgte is somehow MORE extremely modified for this instance than say a Chevy V8 in a C5R???? Its not, its as modified as ALL race engines are for sports car racing(except DSP engines)....

In fact, its fairly road going, as most JGTC 3sgtes use stock block, crank, head casting, displacement. Aditionally, it makes aproximatly double what a stock 3sgte makes, 245HP to around 500HP...

This is in no way any more or less than other sports car racing.......from LeMans, to JGTC.

So, what are you arguing?

[IanGrohse]

Originally posted by RacingManiac
McLaren was fitted with extra small restrictor to cut power to the level which NSX was brought up to, think about it, the stock McLaren has 627 bhp, now it is probably in the sub 500level. While the NSX has been brought up to that level...to make things look equal.....

The normal idea of GT racing is you can somewhat relate the ability of respective car back to their street trim. If NSX wins championship, does that mean it is faster than McLaren?

ALMS needs something done yes, but not through artificial leveling of the field, it was never the case with sportscar at all....

No, not at all........Saleens are racing with Corvettes.....If a Vette wins the championship, does that mean a Vette is faster than a Saleen S7, heck no! Not even close, so that argument doesnt work....

I see what you mean, but first of all NO, I dont know wherre you are getting this stuff about "sub 500".......Most GT500 teams make over 500 HP at the wheels, which equates to well over 500HP....Many teams report making around 600HP, even though the idea is to have 500HP cars.

And yes, the McLarens F1 engine is restricted and less powerful than the road car........AS IT WAS AT LEMANS! Not quite AS much, but still, same deal...

Now, putting Moslers, Vipers, in the GT300 class doesnt make much sense to me.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
It's such a fake GT series, it's all fixed in favor of Japanese manufacturers.

TransAm?

[KC]

That's what I was referring to. It is called the All Japan GT Series. That tells me that it will favor Japanese marques. Just as NASCAR favors American marques.

No one is advocating that LeMans adopt rules like this, even though they do to some degree with weight limits and restrictors. I am saying that the ALMS could use these rules to their benefit. Sportscar racing is on the radar about where CART is. Meaning it draws good crowds, but game shows draw as much TV. I personally think that prototypes are past their time for a regular series. They are simply too expensive to develop and run. I love to watch them race, but who wants to see another Audi season of total dominance? It makes a terrible show. If however, the factory teams were kept at heel and the privateers knew they could compete then maybe so many would not quit in the face of a single juggernaut team. Historically the road-based GT machinerey has always produced better racing, more teams and corporate involvement over time than prototypes.

Would you rather see Corvette, Viper, Jaguar, TVR, Marcos, Lister, Porsche, BMW, Ferrari and Maserati all duelling in equalized machines; or 5 LMP protoypes with one car lapping the field?

[neilap]

Originally posted by RacingManiac
McLaren was fitted with extra small restrictor to cut power to the level which NSX was brought up to, think about it, the stock McLaren has 627 bhp, now it is probably in the sub 500level. While the NSX has been brought up to that level...to make things look equal.....

The normal idea of GT racing is you can somewhat relate the ability of respective car back to their street trim. If NSX wins championship, does that mean it is faster than McLaren?

ALMS needs something done yes, but not through artificial leveling of the field, it was never the case with sportscar at all....

The series was designed by the Japanese for the Japanese. It just happened to take off much more than they anticipated. This is a sign that they are doing things right. What is the JGTC to do? They can ban the Mclaren or they can tell Honda that if they dont have a NA v8 that puts out 700hp then forget about racing. Honda's participation in the JGTC is much more important than some priviteer team. The rules had to be bent to allow all the cars to be competitive. By the way, the NSX's are restricted too. If they were as fast in a straight line as the rest of the field they would never lose.

The Maclaren is not in anyway the most restricted cars either. There are 1000hp streed driven, AWD Skylines. Should they be allowd to compete in that manner too? I know its not a direct comparison to what you say but the option was to restrict the cars or disallow them. Why would anyone even run a Mclaren in the JGTC to begin with?

I like the series and obviously much of the world does too. The sport is becoming world wide and not because of advertising but because of fans demand. Oh, yeah and maybe a little because of Grand Turismo!

[RacingManiac]

McLaren is the most car restricted compare to street trim. The normal road going Skyline GTR makes 280ps, or about 276bhp(SAE), not all Skyline are 1000hp, and most of those 1000bhp Skyline are made for drag racing.....And GT500 cars generally makes 500ps or less. I distinctively remember the NSX running somewhere in 470ps(which is even less than 470bhp) area. They most definitely do not run over 500bhp.

[neilap]

The example I was citing was for the purpose or another argument that could be introduced. Turbocharged cars are being unfairly restricted. We could argue that the rules prevent them from fully utilizing their potential.

The fact remains that the racing is still some of the best in the world. It is rare when the same car wins two races in a row. It may be artificial but its still entertaining. Who wants to see a 600 hp Mclaren run all over cars the have been restricted to 276hp by the manufacturers. Nissan could easily have made the Skyline with the same power as the Mac too. In Japan displacement and hp we not king, that was the American thing.

Every car is restricted in the series. You want to talk about restricted? How about the Viper in the 300 class?

Anyway we all agree the cars are restricted. We all agree the racing is fabricated. F1 did not have rules to introduce artificial racing and what happened. One team at a time would dominate seasons and people would get bored. That never happens in JGTC. Fans are the most important in racing not who is the fastest or who has to be restricted the most. The rules make the cars as even as possible. Without them the series would have died a long time ago.

[champcarman]

An interesting Series which I do not know a lot about.I know they have an interesting variety of cars Supras, Nissans, Honda, even a DTM like Mercedes. Is it on Speed Channel in the US? If you want to see exciting racing with great cars you should get the Aussie V8 Supercars to race on the West Coast some time.

[neilap]

Speed showed a program that was aired by a New Zealand station. It was interesting but the races were cut down to 1/2 hour programs. The action was awesome. I like the Aussie V8s too but being a Honda fan, few things in racing pleases me more than seeing Honda stomp the comptition.

Did I mention that Mugen Honda won the constructors and team titles?

[nsxr]

thie is the end of the horsepower arguement super magazine did a feature on the nissan gt300 silvia and the team didn't say the power figures but hinted at around 450-470hp and the nsz lap them at 2+ seconds and the classes are called 300-500 only in spirit its not really regulated pus if i was a factor and my car only had say 270hp and a mclaren had stock 627 i wouldn't now would I!

[neilap]

Say what?

[kmchow]

Originally posted by neilap
I don't think the racing is biased either. Honda, Toyota and Nissan are all factory backed. The other teams are privately run. Thats why they are not as competitive.

I second this motion. Perhaps 10-15 years ago,it was possible for a private built car to beat the factory ones. But nowadays, that's highly unlikely.

I believe the Taisan ran Porsche has been fairly competitive over the years and it's not Japanese.

[carbsmith]

If the AJGT site means anything, the McLaren's still claim to have the most power. It showed at Fuji
Qual 1.Toyota
2.Toyota
3.McLaren
4.McLaren
(I think)
If they hadn't cut that tire they would have won. The Corvettes may not be the outright fastest car, but they are a lot more legal, and consistent. There wasn't a transaxle to handle the power reliably when they started, that wouldn't mount off the back of the motor, and was sequetial I would guess. WRC motors are pretty stock. Make them reliable, and run as much boost as the rules allow (which isn't much)

[sgw2]

Laguna Seca tradtionally has its big races in September and October. September used to be CART and October Sportscars all the way back to the Can-Am days. CART abandoned the post Labor Day date in favor of June, and predictably the attendance has not recovered. Laguna Seca responded by moving ALMS to the prized September date. That has left the October date unfilled.

CART's future is very shaky, and Laguna Seca does not fit the model Chris Pook is pursuing; why he has been on and off talking to SJ and SF about holding a street race - California budget problems mean this is dead for the moment. So it makes sense for Laguna Seca to try and fill the October date. They have been trying to package Weekend tickets to ALMS with the October 'Historic Sportscar' race. Holding a JGTS race is more viable than the Historics.

In my opinion this is the mating of a desperate facility and a series looking for an American beachhead. No doubt Mazda racing would be a logic place to try and entice Toyota, Honda, and Nissan to participate. I think however the independence that TRD and Nissan USA have displayed indicates that Tokyo will not find willing partners in their US divisions. But the logic of this is there for both the raceway and the series.

I'll probably go if the tiickets are still free with an ALMS weekend pass.

[nsxr]

sgw2 is right that us divisions wont listen to takyo so instead of fastories it'll be all the tuners from japan and ex-irl and cart teams pus an odd entry or two so that will cut out the politics and the big factory pushing out the light guys

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by sgw2
CART's future is very shaky, and Laguna Seca does not fit the model Chris Pook is pursuing; why he has been on and off talking to SJ and SF about holding a street race - California budget problems mean this is dead for the moment.

Cripes... That imported imbecile's going to lead North American road racing merrily down the garden path to oblivion.

[golem]

I much prefer JGT because at least they're trying differant stuff and are fairly recognisable. I think they DO need to be limited a little more to their stock suspensions, chassis and interior but differant powertrains (So long as they maintain drive wheels with the proddy version) is fine so long as it comes from the same manufacturer. I don't see a problem with that.

Anyhow, I like the GT300 formula and cars a little more myself. I'd very much like Australia to start up a GT300 series to compete with and dethrone v8 supercars tell the truth. Racing and Variety would be far better.

And as for the MClaren being restricted... Umm, yeah. It's a million dollar car Verses a 200K car, and it doesn't have all that much that can be done to it chassis wise. But I'm sure Honda could pull ALL sorts of tricks on the NSX if you derestricted things. If you don't have tech/hp restrictors, you need money restrictors like the Australian GTP classes. The Mac would be banned, it's a million dollar car.

[Splatz the Cow]

Lee your first comments seem a little tainted on a cultural level. I won't be more specific than that, but you seem to think your fat 50y/old good old boys are somehow the superior of drivers like Krumm, Ralf Firman (now F1), Katayama, Nakata, Wayne Gardner and Okada.
Notice how people go to Nascar at the end of their career like Michael Andretti. Because there greedy and know the standard is lower and ...... they've got nowhere else to go. Nascar is at the same level in the US as V8 Supercar in Australia, and yes as JGTC in Japan.

Aren't all the cars in Nascar the skins of American family cars? At least in JGTC they have 2 McLaren longtails, and a 1 of a kind Diablo GT1.
While the remaining cars are all Sportcars and have to have the original structure between the A and C pillars, as paer the road car.

[RacingManiac]

Michael Andretti is not in NASCAR....he is in IRL...