Did Fangio Get One Of His WDC As A Gift? - Page 2

Artwinter · 13 Jul 2001, 15:25 (Ref:116624)

Lets move this to the History section.

Gwen

Total-F1 · 13 Jul 2001, 15:50 (Ref:116639)

Le Mans has been part of a step up to Formula One for many drivers - Johnny Herbert, Alex Wurz and David Coulthard have all won there...(at least in their class, before someone complains...)

And giving up a car can be loosely likened to having Barrichello giving up position for you - are you going to say that Schumacher doesn't deserve any of his titles because he had team-mate support?? You get what you can to win, when you're this competitive

Artwinter · 13 Jul 2001, 17:54 (Ref:116680)

Vitesse.

I am old enough that I followed the Sports car races before the GP'S and they were very enjoyable. But you can thank Eclestone and the FIA for stopping them because they were more popular than the GP's. Can you imagine TGF being paid $60,000,000.00 a year to compete in both series. The sponsors would not let this happen due to the chance of someone getting hurt and not being able too compete in the F1 Races.

Gwen

Ray Bell · 13 Jul 2001, 21:09 (Ref:116743)

So, Gwen, what is it that makes it that you can't accept the facts about Fangio. Why do you want to devalue his great efforts?

I guess I'm asking that you make it clear that you accept that he won all five titles fairly and squarely, that he was never gifted any.

Vitesse · 13 Jul 2001, 21:52 (Ref:116769)

Total-F1, I think you have misunderstood my point - I specified "active" F1 drivers. Herbert raced at Le Mans both before and after his F1 career, but not IIRC during it. That's what I meant about them being one-dimensional: perhaps I should have said one-track. Today's drivers are so well (ie over)-paid that they don't feel they have to please their fans by turning up for Le Mans or a minor event at a small track: that's why Moss, Fangio, Clark, Hill and the rest from that era garnered such respect and followings. Can you really imagine TGF taking part in a 10 lap thrash round Oulton Park in a saloon car the weekend after winning a GP - Moss, Clark, Hill and others did that as a matter of course and would then go off and run in a big sports car race the weekend after that. And they didn't do it primarily for the money - they did it for the love of racing!

And Gwen, you misunderstand me as well - the elimination of major support races the day before GPs was a sensible move. The twenty-four hour rule meant that F1 drivers always approached the Grand Prix in the correct fashion. Events like the death of Jean Behra at AVUS and Fangio's crash at Monza after an epic drive from Ulster to make the race demonstrate how much pressure there was sometimes to perform: my point remains that today's drivers are such prima donnas that they think they can survive and go down in history by just being F1 drivers. I think and hope that future historians will judge them harshly against the great all-rounders like Fangio.

Ask yourself this question: if there is still a Goodwood Festival of Speed in 2041, will the 2001 World Champion be hailed in the way that Phil Hill was this year? I think not ...

Joe Fan · 14 Jul 2001, 00:26 (Ref:116818)

One question I have about 1956, was Collins really a gentleman for handing over his car to Fangio in the season-ending Italian GP or was he pretty much expected to and played along with it?

Artwinter · 14 Jul 2001, 01:07 (Ref:116831)

Vitesse.

I'm glad you mentioned the Goodwood Festival Of Speed. A couple of years ago they interviewed Sterling Moss and ask him who the greatest driver he ever saw was? And it wasn't Fangio it was Ayrton Senna. And Phil Hill put his car into the bank and tore it up. And by the way how many races did Phil Hill win the year he was WDC? phil Hill couldn't kiss TGF's boots.

Gwen

**Peter Mallett** · 14 Jul 2001, 02:46 (Ref:116844)

Joe.

I suspect Collins knew he'd have to hand his car over and did so willingly. That was an act of a sportsman because their contracts would not have been written to include such a thing. I think that's what sets these men apart from our current "heroes".

Gwen,

Your original question was not concerning "the greatest" it was suggesting that Fangio was gifted a championship. I postulated that your thread may have been raised to compare him unfavourably with Mickey-the-shoe.

You appear to have strayed from your original topic so just to put the record straight. Until the money men got hold of Formula One, the drivers put maximum effort into every race. They did it for the fun (and some financial reward) mostly. Today we have a world champion who may win a lot of races but his contract (and this is the point) stipulates that he will not be beaten by his team mate. Surely you can see that this is a non-sporting restriction.

To then say that Phil Hill is not fit to kiss TGF's boots is somewhat inflammatory to those who put sportsmanship and personality above the trappings of money and assisted success.

fines · 14 Jul 2001, 09:07 (Ref:116898)

Quote:

Originally posted by gwen
Vitesse.

I'm glad you mentioned the Goodwood Festival Of Speed. A couple of years ago they interviewed Sterling Moss and ask him who the greatest driver he ever saw was? And it wasn't Fangio it was Ayrton Senna. And Phil Hill put his car into the bank and tore it up. And by the way how many races did Phil Hill win the year he was WDC? phil Hill couldn't kiss TGF's boots.

Gwen

Admin, I think it's time to put this thread back to where it came from. It doesn't belong here.

Vitesse · 14 Jul 2001, 11:47 (Ref:116968)

I'll second that Michael - I have no intention of indulging in a slanging match about the relative merits of Phil Hill and TGF: I don't stoop that low, but I know which one I'd vote out of the balloon basket ....

Ray Bell · 14 Jul 2001, 12:14 (Ref:116972)

Is gwen for real? Has she actually got any intellect?

I asked her straight, and she refused to answer, to state whether or not she accepted - in the face of overwhelming evidence - that Fangio was not gifted any titles.

The fact that she has not done so, and the fact that the weight of the evidence is such that it cannot be ignore, shows that she has indeed set out on a course designed to inflame and corrupt the peace of this bulletin board.

Let's give her the recognition she deserves.... after all, 'Mickey-the-shoe' never hired a Maserati (or a Williams) for a one-off race to prove to Enzo that he deserved to be elevated to the F1 team at Ferrari. That was a move that took guts...

Valve Bounce · 14 Jul 2001, 12:33 (Ref:116977)

I'm sorry that Bernd Rosemeyer has been left out of this discussion - he was also one of the greatest and most gifted of drivers.
And Ray!! I think you are being unkind to Gwen. Let's just accept that she didn't think things through clearly before posting this thread. We shouldn't attack the ladies in this forum, most undignified.

Ray Bell · 14 Jul 2001, 14:04 (Ref:117023)

While I agree about Rosemeyer, I don't think I have dealt with gwen in any manner that's unduly harsh.

What bearing does it have on the issue to say anything about her position when she posted the thread? I took issue with her total lack of response to the facts raised in rebuttal.

Artwinter · 14 Jul 2001, 14:39 (Ref:117032)

Ray Bell.

I am not here to inflame and corrupt this board. I brought up one race in Fangios career. Which I stated very well and had no reason to bring up every race in his career. And I still have the same feelings about the 1956 WDC. And before you start slinging any more mud just remember that your track record is no better than mine!

Gwen

Ray Bell · 14 Jul 2001, 20:41 (Ref:117131)

I sling no mud, gwen, and my track record is excellent... I have no skeletons in my cyber closet... just ask any of the many supporters I have from Atlas.

What I have said, Gwen, is that your query raised the hackles of many on a fine panel of historians, and that so far you have not met any of their answers with anything other than "I still say I'm right... you can't be!" responses...

Please, gwen, read through them, the ones about the circumstances of the time, particularly the one from fines that explains that only Fangio could have won the 1956 with the circumstances that prevailed in that race of which you speak... read it, with an open mind.... please.

If you have any issues with me, please take them up by PM.

Mekola · 14 Jul 2001, 22:24 (Ref:117158)

Quote:

Originally posted by gwen
Vitesse.And Phil Hill put his car into the bank and tore it up. And by the way how many races did Phil Hill win the year he was WDC? phil Hill couldn't kiss TGF's boots.

Gwen

Phil Hill won two races the year he was WDC: Belgium and Italy.
And about this thing with TGF... it means me like a "rache" of his former teammate Wolfgang von Trips but, I'm not understand why when Phil and Taffy don't have problems as teammates...

TimD · 14 Jul 2001, 23:16 (Ref:117173)

MODERATOR'S HAT ON...

Right - time out, ladies and gentlemen.

I have had complaints sent to me about this thread, and reading through it, I understand why.

Whatever happens in other forums is up to their moderators. I for one do not enjoy seeing personal abuse in print. This is regardless of whether it is directed at a driver some of us regard as a hero, or at a fellow poster, who likely as not in our little community will be a friend.

You are all intelligent, learned people. You can express your point of view without reverting to cheap shots.

So this thread will stand only on those terms, if you please.

I never thought I'd have to say this in the Historic Racing forum....

RT · 15 Jul 2001, 01:39 (Ref:117200)

All I'll say is that many other drivers have had their WC's given to him by superior cars (yes, Eddie is right) or asking a teammate to move over (D. Hill's win in Australia), (Nigel Mansell's superior car in his WC year), (Ayrton Senna in the unbeatable Hondas), etc, etc. However, the record simpley states:

Juan Manuel Fangio = 5 WC's; no matter what..... it is 5WC's !!!

For all the fans of the "nearly did it". The more you compare Fangio to the ones he beat, the more you enhance his memory.

By the way, the same will apply to Michael Schumacher many years from now.

At some point, the statistics speak louder than subjective judgements.

Valve Bounce · 15 Jul 2001, 09:43 (Ref:117250)

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray Bell
While I agree about Rosemeyer, I don't think I have dealt with gwen in any manner that's unduly harsh.

What bearing does it have on the issue to say anything about her position when she posted the thread? I took issue with her total lack of response to the facts raised in rebuttal.

Ray, please don't do a John Howard on us. Just say "Sorry", then kiss and make up, OK?

**Bononi** · 15 Jul 2001, 11:29 (Ref:117284)

Ok, now please ?

Let's take a beer now, OK ??

Artwinter · 15 Jul 2001, 15:46 (Ref:117338)

I would like to have this entire post deleted as it will seve a lot of problems.

Gwen

Mekola · 15 Jul 2001, 17:02 (Ref:117360)

Quote:

Originally posted by gwen
Bononi.

I saw Collins give the car to Fangio on SpeedVision last month and I began to wonder how often this had happpened in Fangios career. Things like this coundn't happen today due to the speed of the pit stops and safety equipment. This has nuthing to do with TGF I saw Fangio drive at Sebring an he was a great driver but this makes me understand that there is no comparison between then and now due to technology.

Gwen

After Fangio abandon, Ferrari director called Musso to stop to give the car to Fangio, but Musso refused. After that, when Collins came to the pits, he saw Fangio stand up, get out of his car and gave Fangio the drive of his Ferrari. Quickly Fangio (not understanding very much what happens) thanks him and take the drive, drove for the rest of the race, finished second after Moss, and won the title.
You can think that as a Collins gift, but Fangio made the effort to finish second the race. About Moss, he finished the race with problems, and need the help of another car (slower Maserati before him) to "pull" him with the (what I can name this?) air turbulences to go to the finish line. Moss won the race and Fangio his fourth title. Also, it was a merit for Fangio because he had an embarge (he was on interdiction) because the Argentinian military goverment embarged his possessions after the coup of state against Peron (exiled at this time).

**Craig** · 15 Jul 2001, 17:15 (Ref:117366)

Quote:

Originally posted by gwen
I would like to have this entire post deleted as it will seve a lot of problems.

Gwen

Sorry, we don't remove posts without good reason. This topic will be of interest to a number of people, so it will stay unless a good reason for it's removal can be put to me.

**Peter Mallett** · 16 Jul 2001, 02:25 (Ref:117502)

Perhaps I should apologise for bringing this thread to the forum. I had hoped to garner some more knowledge on Fangio so that Gwen might gain a bit more of a perspective on the relative differences between the Worls Championship of the 50's and that of today. However it seems that maybe we have overstepped the mark.

Apologies to all of you.

Marshal · 16 Jul 2001, 11:36 (Ref:117688)

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Fangio had previous experience with pre-war M-Bs, by the way, a W154 he raced in the Argentine... but not of the W125 to my knowledge. This is the kind of story I was hoping to flush out in an effort to show Gwen that she has been sidetracked for no good reason.

Yes I know, I think it was a W163 though (sorry, splitting hairs a bit I know) - Temporada races in 1950?

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