Should the BMW M3 CSL Be classed as a GT car and be Eligable for the GT/NGT Class?

[SALEEN S7R]

Im not exactly certain what the car is. But yes I think the car is the same as the BMW M3 GTR In terms of performance. I did find this page on the car, http://www.supercars.net/cars/2003@$BMW@$M3%20CSLg.html Whether or not the performance of the car according to supercars.net is correct though im not so sure as the site isnt always very accurate. But at least now u have a idea as to what the car is. I also think the car there is just a bog standard M3 CSL, not a top line version.

Ah yes I was just reading on another forum which has the "offical" specs of this car that the car is restricted to 155mph but can be de-limited for holders of a racing licence. *phew*

[skycafe]

But hold the Deawoos! (unless they build an LMP!!!!!)

[Aysedasi]

I've voted no, of course.

But I really can't be bothered to go through the rationale for the 387th time. Did we really need a poll to decide this? Your view is yours and mine is mine. The same goes for everyone else. The argument in your first post Saleen is a complete irrelevance. A 911 cannot be compared with an M3 for reasons which are pretty obvious.

I'm sorry, but yes, I am annoyed at this post and I see no reason to PM you about it. We've had countless views on this in another thread as you well know.

I won't pull this thread - yet.

[gttouring]

This is a terrible firey discussion and as always will raise much ire in us.
the 4 door 3 series body type makes me hesitant on the true 'GTness' of the car. The M3 is indeed a different chassis i know and shares some parts with the 3series. Now imprtantly what is a GT- Gran turismo
a car you can travel from and too racetracks and race it.
2 doors? I think so, and sportscar-not 'sporty' car.
The M3 is a step beyond the Touringcar 3 series but is not a true GT. Neither is a front drive GT-although rules allow it so I must accept thm. I would be more apt for the M3 to be a true coupe as the new 6 series or the old 6 series BMW's or the 8 series.
A fantastic car no doubt but I think it misses the GTness mark that is so elusive. It is a welcome addition to competition and I miss them, in fact few TouringCars can make good GT from a similar car. i just don't feel it.
Neither is the Holden Monaro a GT but an awesome car. i would accept both in GT however.

[Aysedasi]

I've changed my mind.

There is absolutely no reason to keep this thread separate from the one which raptor started. I am therefore merging them.

If this is worth one discussion, it certainly isn't worth two.

(IMO)

[rdjones]

Personally I think it is a Touring Car and I agree with everything that Ayse says.

[dretceterini]

2 door coupes should be considred GTs. A car should have to have 4 doors to be considered a touring car.

[Aysedasi]

What the heck does the number of doors have to do with it?

Or the fact that it just happens to go quite quickly?

[Aysedasi]

I am now going to make a very deliberate attempt to leave this thread alone. If you want a poll, so be it. My views are clear. I leave the thread for you to discuss the issue as you wish. I will only look in to make sure you're all behaving.......

[SALEEN S7R]

Ayse, Im sorry. I didnt mean to create this post just to get at u and ur views. I just thought that it was one way to settle the matter when way or the other. Again, I was NOT flaming, I hope u understand that Ayse. I respect ur views on every matter, just I dont always agree. Which applies to every other member here I would imagine. Didnt mean to upset u Ayse so sorry about that.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by skycafe


And Aysedasi, if you do end up at Le Mans with a Daewoo, then I supply the beer!

You're on my friend!

(And I deliberately make no comment about the rest of your post )

[Aysedasi]

No problem Saleen - I've calmed down now

But whatever posts you get and votes you get on this thread, I just don't see how that can "settle the matter".

No further comment - I've said more than enough already.

[skycafe]

I meant no offense, nor did I mean in any way to offer any sort of challenge. Hey, my one post got knocked off. I will search back in forum and read older stuff on this issue. I know in a sense that my perspective comes from living in the states, and living with sports car racing here, which enjoys much less support then exists on the other side of the Atlantic.

My offer still stands to supply the beer!

[Aysedasi]

skycafe - your post is still around somewhere, because I replied to it! I actually made a mistake when I merged the two threads. I merged the wrong ones! I then had to split the thread I'd merged and do the merging again. I may have missed your post skycafe, in which case I think I know where it is. If I can find it, I'll put it back!

[Aysedasi]

Right, they're back now, I think!

[kdr]

its so a touring car its scarey. even when it turned up in the alms it looked totally out of place. different engined versions of this car have been running in the british TOURING car championship and the european TOURING car championship for years and years...can't see how shoehorning in a bigger engine makes any difference.

two simple questions. do you think professional sportscar drivers think a bmw 3 series is a GT car? and do all those reps going up and down the motorway in their 3 series think they're driving a GT?

sorry for flippancy and any technical/historical inaccuracies.

[SALEEN S7R]

Well almost Le Mans winners Dirk and Jurg Muller both seem to think so, or at least they did when they drove the machines in the ALMS and ELMS. And yes I know they both race in touring cars, but they have each had their share of sportscar experince too. One other thing, the BMW M3 has never raced in the BTCC or ETCC. I can say that with certatinty for the ETCC as its a Super 2000 touring car series, and they have to run 2.0ltr engines which are normally aspirated. The cars also have to be 4 door Saloons. The BMW M3 isnt either of those. The cars uve seen racing in the BTCC are in the Production class, and I belive are older E46 machines.

[weeks]

Anything that can comfterably fit more than two people is, in my oppinion, not a GT. An M version of the Z4 would make a better GT anyway.

[SALEEN S7R]

Wasnt the Porsche 911 GT2 a 4 seater car? If I remember a Jeremy clarkson video correctly he said theres room for 2 Large Adults in the front, and 2 normal size adults in the back, and he also said that whilst there wasnt bags of leg room in comparisson to say a Ford Granada, it was comfortable enough. I think most 911's can seat 4 people. Maybe some cant, but most can.

[pirenzo]

I think sportscar rading is traditionally extremely diverse, especially in the GT's, but in recent years, the GT class in particular has become an exclusive Porsche club.
OK, it's getting better now, but frankly the sight of even a single 911 is enough to bore me.
The BMW was just an altogether different beast, that brough welcome competition to the GT's. It's a desirable road going car, capable of being as fast as the Porsche, and that to me is what the GT's are about. The most desirable "sport" cars. It's nothing to do with the shape, or whatever. The SEAT Toledo could be just as fast as a Porsche, or the BMW, but it's a crappy family car, and that's why i don't call it a GT. If Mercedes went racing one of their top line road cars (i'm not good on their names, is it the CLK, SLK, something like that? It's the rival to the M3 in any case), in the same league as the BMW M3, or the Audi RS6 i'd call them GT's, but a heavily breathed on Nissan Primera, or Ford Mondeo just isn't. GT cars just have a certain something, that make them stand out from the crowd. Whether it looks like a sterotypical GT or not means nothing.

[Lee Janotta]

I'd prefer something a bit more sporty in the styling department, but from an engineering standpoint, the M3 CSL is every bit a GT car. The 911 is, and always has been, a four seater, don't forget.

Und nein, das is sehr nicht ein M3 GTR! The M3 CSL is powered by a stock-block, fully homologated 3.2L straight six, not the grossly illegal 4.0L V8 in the GTR, which never appeared on a BMW production line.

And it costs a fraction of what the M3 GTR did, with a UK base price of £58,455. Compare that with six figures of an M3 GTR, which you couldn't buy anyhow.

The SEAT Toledo GT, on the other hand, is a riced-up grocery getter, and should never be allowed on the grid at LeMans.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta


The SEAT Toledo GT, on the other hand, is a riced-up grocery getter, and should never be allowed on the grid at LeMans.

I guess it depends on what you habitually use (or might use) to go and get your groceries.

[kdr]

i usually go in my bmw 3 series................

[Aysedasi]

I rest my case......

(cheers kdr - I'll hand over the cash later..... )

[Cynic]

Having looked at the pics, I'd like to know who classed the car as a coupe. Park it next to a 318i 3-door saloon and see if you can spot the difference. losing 2 doors does not a coupe make. Nothing BMW ever do to the M3 will convince me it's a GT. It has, and will always be a touring car.