Changes to Marshals Grading Scheme

[Chris Hobson]

No probs. We tried to cater for those who got an assessment signature mid grade e.g. for performing well in a major incident situation.

Johngee - I have tried to keep it as simple as poss - believe me it could have been a lot more complicated!!!!

It is actually quite straightforward - but people try to read into it things that are not there - different people interpret the procedure in different ways - but I will try to clarify and simplify wherever possible and remove the need for interpretations.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

Johngee - I have tried to keep it as simple as poss - believe me it could have been a lot more complicated!!!!

It is actually quite straightforward - but people try to read into it things that are not there - different people interpret the procedure in different ways - but I will try to clarify and simplify wherever possible and remove the need for interpretations.

Chris. Thank you for your courteous comment and for all the work that you've done on this. My comments were, in the words of Kenny Everett "in the best possible taste"

[Duracell]

I'm a track Marshall (Green) who upgraded from trainee this year. I've got about 70 meetings under my belt in the last two seasons of Marshalling.

The only reason I upgraded was because at some meetings I felt I was being talked down to as a trainee, otherwise I was happy. Most of the time I was working with the same people so they knew what I could and couldn't do anyway...

I really can't see myself upgrading again for a good few years, if ever. I love the sport and I love marshalling. I manage a team of people at work and I like turning up and doing what I'm told. Being an Indian, not a Chief.

My biggest concern is that people who collect badges and upgrades at some point will be 'found out' if they get through the system too quickly, and can't cope at the top. If you can only 'count' one training day a year hopefully it will slow people down. After all, it's not a race!

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by Duracell

I really can't see myself upgrading again for a good few years, if ever. I love the sport and I love marshalling. I manage a team of people at work and I like turning up and doing what I'm told. Being an Indian, not a Chief.

My biggest concern is that people who collect badges and upgrades at some point will be 'found out' if they get through the system too quickly, and can't cope at the top. If you can only 'count' one training day a year hopefully it will slow people down. After all, it's not a race!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

I will try to clarify and simplify wherever possible and remove the need for interpretations.

Could we have a new guide showing each discipline, how to get to it and where to go from it together with the requirements? I've long since lost interest in trying to keep up with what's what (bad of me, I know) and a resume of what's available and what's needed would be an excellent way of getting me back on track.

A pdf, word or similar format will be fine, no need for lots of printing - even just something to view online. I'm thinking along the lines of for each grade:

Race, experienced
Upgrades from Race, trainee. Requires X sigs, 2 training days. Assessment required for upgrade to confirm:
Competent to work at an incident without supervision
Competent to act as incident officer if required
etc.

Possible next upgrade: Race, I/O; Race, flag

[The Fat Clerk]

What a good idea. I'm a Gold/Black X and can honestly say I've lost the plot a bit on what can & can't be signed & when.

[Mark Mitchell]

Nice one Chris! (Woolley) Through not being very active over the last couple of seasons, I too have become unfamiliar with what's required for upgrading. As an examining Observer I have adopted the view that if someone presents themselves for assessment, then I will assume that the required number of signatures (Attendance & Training) have been met!
(At Oulton this works well, as in the past, the Chief IO "Normally" puts a little post-it note in the PRC of the person wanting to be assessed, which indicates that all the i's have been dotted!)

[johngee]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

What a good idea. I'm a Gold/Black X and can honestly say I've lost the plot a bit on what can & can't be signed & when.

I repeat my original comment (and with great respect to Chris Hobson and others involved with the grading scheme..... and I mean it! ), if somebody as experienced and well qualified as the Fat Clerk admits he's confused, then surely it's become (or is becoming) overcomplicated.
Is there any hard evidence that the current/proposed system actually produces higher quality and motivation?

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Woolley

A pdf, word or similar format will be fine, no need for lots of printing - even just something to view online. I'm thinking along the lines of for each grade:

And also for The Fat Clerk and Johngee...

Based on the numbers given in Chris's post #13 [ http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....4&postcount=13 ]

A graphical breakdown of days between grades:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=0&output=html

By no means guaranteed to give all the information, but hopefully clarifies the info from Chris (as I have understood it) for those looking for an easy reference.

I should also add, that the colours are to distinguish the different paths, where they might exist, and nothing else.

[deley]

it really isn't this complicated

Dave

[johngee]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

And also for The Fat Clerk and Johngee...

.

Thanks for the clarification. Blame me for being curently housebound with too much time on my hands.

[TerryD]

As a Specialist i know there are many disciplines within the specialism grade(Assemby,Startline,Pits). I feel that for someone to be qualified as an Experienced Specialist they must have a working knowledge of all areas of the Specialist Grade. If someone comes to me for an assessement and they haven't done all areas of specialism then I couldn't pass them as they haven't got the relevant experience!

TerryD(Examining Specialist)

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by johngee

Thanks for the clarification. Blame me for being curently housebound with too much time on my hands.

Thats no problem.

Laying it out like that did show that I had misunderstood the progression scheme as well. I had assumed that the route from Exp. Track to Post Chief was via the I/O grade, but if my diagram is correct, I can move straight to Post Chief missing out the I/O and Flag grades if I were so inclined. That really wasn't an option I had considered until spotting it here.

*note: the route most likely has always been there, and it is almost certainly my misunderstanding of the process. I don't want to start rumours that the path has changed.

[deley]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Thats no problem.

Laying it out like that did show that I had misunderstood the progression scheme as well. I had assumed that the route from Exp. Track to Post Chief was via the I/O grade, but if my diagram is correct, I can move straight to Post Chief missing out the I/O and Flag grades if I were so inclined. That really wasn't an option I had considered until spotting it here.

*note: the route most likely has always been there, and it is almost certainly my misunderstanding of the process. I don't want to start rumours that the path has changed.

correct, the path from Exp to PC existed and is/was shown on the Race grading flow chart. It allowed a progression directly rather than having to go via Flag or I/O because PC, Flag Marshal and I/O are very distinct, different roles (and we will not start a discussion on the number of times many of us have had to wear multiple hats). One can of course go to PC via Flag or I/O if one wishes.

I believe the supplementary info on minimum attendance days and which training modules are needed per grade and the timespan spacing required between any of them (as Chris H said should be forthcoming) will assist in helping with understanding the system.


Dave

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by TerryD

As a Specialist i know there are many disciplines within the specialism grade(Assemby,Startline,Pits). I feel that for someone to be qualified as an Experienced Specialist they must have a working knowledge of all areas of the Specialist Grade. If someone comes to me for an assessement and they haven't done all areas of specialism then I couldn't pass them as they haven't got the relevant experience!

TerryD(Examining Specialist)

maybe a specialist assesment for each discipline?! eh, but that wouldnt work as its busy enough for chief pits such as yourself as it is anyway.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

And also for The Fat Clerk and Johngee...

Based on the numbers given in Chris's post #13 [ http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....4&postcount=13 ]

A graphical breakdown of days between grades:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=0&output=html

By no means guaranteed to give all the information, but hopefully clarifies the info from Chris (as I have understood it) for those looking for an easy reference.

I should also add, that the colours are to distinguish the different paths, where they might exist, and nothing else.

its good and its good somebody as has took the time to help to those who need the help in the higher positions who have to take more info and meaning from these charts than the whites, greens and maybe even reds what with undertaking assesments and the like but the detail from exp track needs amending,

most of its right the way it is but the way ive read it you have to now do 20 days from exp to flag/i.o then 20 days from flag/i.o to pc if you choose to do that and the two shouldnt be on the same level as pc although i dont know how youll do that.

id have the green number of days under flag and i/o as you still need to do 20 days as trainee pc even if you decide to do flag or i/o and this shows that if you choose either of those you can't automatically start doing trainee pc...even though you can it shows if you do them you cant progress after i.o/flags. oh and it may need details about training days as that stoops people aswell

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Thats no problem.

... I can move straight to Post Chief missing out the I/O and Flag grades if I were so inclined.

Debatable point.

Yes, it is a route, but would it engage the hearts and souls of your team? Does it encompass the experience the newly evolved grading system is trying to define?

When dinosaurs ruled the earth, the route to Post Chief (Observer) was via flag. Indeed an experienced flaggie was/is often chosen as an acting Observer when needed. The argument was that they knew how to read races which is absolutely true. Indeed some are quite scary at it!

The PC route via I/O is now recognised as excellent from a team-management-skills point of view, but a PC having both flag and I/O grades is someone you simply cannot argue with.

Going from Experienced to PC is now allowed, but whether a highly experienced I/O (or flag) would take you seriously is another matter.

I would resist the inclination.

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by TerryD

As a Specialist i know there are many disciplines within the specialism grade(Assemby,Startline,Pits). I feel that for someone to be qualified as an Experienced Specialist they must have a working knowledge of all areas of the Specialist Grade. If someone comes to me for an assessement and they haven't done all areas of specialism then I couldn't pass them as they haven't got the relevant experience!

TerryD(Examining Specialist)

Which areas of Specialist grade are you referring to?

Congratulations on the X.

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Thats no problem.

Laying it out like that did show that I had misunderstood the progression scheme as well. I had assumed that the route from Exp. Track to Post Chief was via the I/O grade, but if my diagram is correct, I can move straight to Post Chief missing out the I/O and Flag grades if I were so inclined. That really wasn't an option I had considered until spotting it here.

*note: the route most likely has always been there, and it is almost certainly my misunderstanding of the process. I don't want to start rumours that the path has changed.

Under the old system to grade to Observer you had to hold either Flag grade or IO grade but if IO didn't hold Flag grade they had to hold a Flag Training day signature.

There was no reverse requirement and a marshal could grade for Observer without an Incident/IO grade but would have to obtain double the number of signatures required.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by numbersix

The PC route via I/O is now recognised as excellent from a team-management-skills point of view, but a PC having both flag and I/O grades is someone you simply cannot argue with.

Going from Experienced to PC is now allowed, but whether a highly experienced I/O (or flag) would take you seriously is another matter.

Amen

[m1fcf]

@Deley, NumberSix and KayBee,
Thanks for the comments. To be honest, I am not expecting to make that leap from Exp.Track to PC in one go - it was put in as a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment to see if some people reacted strongly. I guess I kinda missed with that one.

Whilst going straight to PC from Exp.Tr might open a few more opportunities for me, I certainly don't think that I have the depth of knowledge of racing and trackside to be able to take on that responsibility for a whole team just yet. Exp.Tr gives me the track skills, and as NumberSix mentioned, going through the I/O route will give me some Team Leading/People skills to make me into a more rounded marshal (and not just from too many pork pies.... )

@NewYankee, the diagram was not meant to explain all possible paths through the training, but merely to picture the text of Chris's post. When more info becomes available, I'll update the diagram to try and better reflect what I believe the paths to be. I should be able to include timescales, training days and assessments in there as well (all things the current diagram does not include)

Anyway, I have taken up enough time in this thread. Lets return our viewers to the scheduled programming....in 3....2.....1.....*POW*

[Chris Hobson]

Wooley,

Already prepared and ready to be loaded onto the MSA website - and circulated to all marshals via "The Marshal" I hope. It will also be on the BMMC website when I get chance to upload it.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

Wooley,

Already prepared and ready to be loaded onto the MSA website - and circulated to all marshals via "The Marshal" I hope. It will also be on the BMMC website when I get chance to upload it.

Thanks, Chris. Appreciate all the effort you put into this.

[TerryD]

Originally Posted by KayBee

Which areas of Specialist grade are you referring to?

Congratulations on the X.

Read the quote Kay! I'm referring to the Experienced Grade.