Sebring 2009 Protest (Audi's Spirit < Acura's Challenge)

[johntt]

Originally Posted by XJR14/WSC95

Honda sell cars in Europe and Japan (Japan has Interest in Le Mans). Is it really that hard to change 5 Little Letters for one race and give Honda some publicity in Europe as they are no longer in F1. A Holden V8 Supercar team ran with Chevrolet branding for there race in Bahrain.

IIRC the plan is for Acura to race at Le Mans, the long term plan being to lauch the Acura brand in Europe.

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Panoz doesnt have the money ..... Multinational pharmacuticals company !?! ..... yeah , right .

different generation of panoz. but they have admitted in the past that they actually didn't have the budget to do a proper job with their prototype efforts, and that they probably should have been in gt all along.

Riley doesnt have the money with all those sales ..... Lavaggi can ?

I reckon Riley wont do it , cuz he is too comfortable at the moment , and he really needs too .

riley is a business. lavaggi is a privateer outfit spending its own and other's money to race in the series it wants.

there is a difference. riley does not have the money to throw away on an LMP effort (how much money does honda spend on their Acura program? they used to spend $50 million or more on the IRL and CART when they were fighting other manufacturers. that budget is what was transferred to the ALMS). nor does Riley have the ability. they can build a car. they can't field one...

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by JAG

So the money is there for the LMS and Grand Am, whether from manufacturer's, sponsors or wealthy individuals, but not for the ALMS.

But the ALMS is not at fault, it's the economy?

different situations. you confuse the two an awful lot. the LMS is in Europe. there is more support for sports car racing in Europe, than there is in North America. it's also easier to be a competitor, because until Peugeot showed up, it was all privateer efforts in Europe, whereas for the last decade, the Audi factor squad was in the ALMS kicking the snot out of all comers.

Grand-Am, as TWK's excellent article at the last turn club points out, is not in the same financial ballpark. your average Daytona Prototype is about the same price range as a GT car in the ALMS or LMS.

that's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, especially when one is discussing the issue of why few are willing to field prototypes in the ALMS.

then there's also the whole issue of NASCAR, and their predominance of the US motorsports scene, and there's also the IRL, who take up many of the team owners who might otherwise have been interested.

it's not just the economy, and I've never said that it was, but the racing ecology in the US and Europe is different. and that leads to different grids and different results for the ALMS, and LMS...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

then there's also the whole issue of NASCAR, and their predominance of the US motorsports scene, and there's also the IRL, who take up many of the team owners who might otherwise have been interested

In Europe we have F1, WTCC, DTM, WRC, GP2, WSR, F3, BTCC, French GT, International GT Open and a lot of other series....So NASCAR and IRL are in my opinion no excuse.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by FIRE

In Europe we have F1, WTCC, DTM, WRC, GP2, WSR, F3, BTCC, French GT, International GT Open and a lot of other series....So NASCAR and IRL are in my opinion no excuse.

Well, not to get political, but there is some difference between One Country and a whole bunch!

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by FIRE

In Europe we have F1, WTCC, DTM, WRC, GP2, WSR, F3, BTCC, French GT, International GT Open and a lot of other series....So NASCAR and IRL are in my opinion no excuse.

let's compare.

f1: international series, nominally anchored in Europe. no team or car transfer elsewhere. a media profile and sponsor cost unsurpassed, and out of anyone else's league. not a competitor for sponsorship or support.

WTCC: touring cars, on par with GT budgets. again, not relevant to a discussion about why there aren't more prototypes in the ALMS.

DTM: similar budgets, higher appeal, this actually would compete with the LMS for interests sufficient for a prototype.

GP2: traditional open wheel teams, similar budgets, but a very different crowd. possibly competing.

WSR: how much to run? who's interested in running? i don't see how these would eat up prototype entries. nor the kind of backers needed for prototypes.

f3. definitely not the same thing at all. junior development formula, very different profile, and different interests supporting it.

International GT Open/BGT/etc: a GT car series, with the same cars as the GT class in the LMS. no impact on the prototype grid, although a positive impact on the GT grid due to providing greater sponsor and team opporunities. again, not relevant to the discussion.

so, of the series you mentioned, only GP2 and the DTM really seem to possibly apply.

NASCAR sucks up sponsorship for 43 teams in Sprint Cup, which would be the DTM and GP2 combined (plus extra). it also, has ~30 Nationwide Series teams which cost about equivalent to a prototype to run. so, that's 70 protoype level teams to fund. it also, by virtue of its media profile, shuts out media attention on the ALMS (outside of Audi advertising). the IRL has a similar profile to the ALMS, with similar budgets to prototypes, and like minded teams. with the Indy 500, it has an event which dwarfs everything in sports car racing in North America (according to Richard Clark, if the ALMS had an Indy 500 equivalent event, they would have just gone exclusively into the ALMS).

between the IRL and NASCAR, media attention is monopolized and the ALMS is unable to get a toe-hold in the media market necessary to attract the kind of backers who fund prototypes in the LMS. it at the same time competes for funding with approximately 80-90 equivalent teams in terms of resource demand, who have considerably more to offer in terms of media exposure.

LMS prototype efforts do not face that same challenge from the DTM and GP2...

[Robert RS]

I would not go ahead with your action. If anything you'll be rubbing salt in the wounds of the guys at Audi who, and I am sure of this, would love to go head to head with Acura. It's more than a bit short sighted to claim that Audi ran away while it is painfully obvious that there are quite a lot more reasons at play...

ALMS seems to be struggling at the moment, though GT2 looks to be as interesting as ever! The best you can do is turn up at the races and make a party out of it. Unhappy fans are not the best way to return teams and sponsors to a series...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Robert RS

Unhappy fans are not the best way to return teams and sponsors to a series...

exactly!. It would destroy the series!, just look at how F1 has cracks!, if it wasn't because F1 was so strong, that series would have closed!

[JAG]

The ALMS and FIA GT series look to be suffering more than most from the current economic conditions, is it just coincidence they have long calendars, short races, and long travelling distances.

Sportscars fit the endurance format like a glove, and can help spread costs when moneys tight.

[wills]

As far as media goes the ALMS and LMS is only viewable to those with a specialised motorsports channel (Speed and MotorsTV for either side of the pond).

Audi did put their foot in it by whining about why their main rivals didn't challenge them directly a few years ago and just when Acura has built a car to directly do so Audi decides to pull out. Even more puzzling especially as they have spent allot developing the R15 to only do Sebring and Le Mans. Maybe this is a temporary thing and that they would campaign the R15 fully for 2010.

Lets hope that Privateers such as Intersport and Ginetta Zytek can step it up to the big boys for the rest of the season.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by wills

As far as media goes the ALMS and LMS is only viewable to those with a specialised motorsports channel (Speed and MotorsTV for either side of the pond).

Audi did put their foot in it by whining about why their main rivals didn't challenge them directly a few years ago and just when Acura has built a car to directly do so Audi decides to pull out. Even more puzzling especially as they have spent allot developing the R15 to only do Sebring and Le Mans. Maybe this is a temporary thing and that they would campaign the R15 fully for 2010.

Lets hope that Privateers such as Intersport and Ginetta Zytek can step it up to the big boys for the rest of the season.

I take it you never watch the ALMS, or you would have noticed half the races are broadcast on major networks rather than on Speed.

Audi did not decide to do any of the things that contributed to the financial meltdown with the possible exception of untenable leasing practices which were promoted by many dealerships in a similar manner to the subprime lending fiasco for houses. If the world were humming along fine and Audi pulled this stunt, then all the flak they are taking for ducking Acura would be allowable, but in the face of GDPs contracting around the globe, it frankly makes those saying it look like they're in a bubble. Would you like to personally explain to a laid-off worker and his/her family that you wanted to sacrifice his job so you could watch an R15 this year? I won't defend all of Audi's financial decisions here, but seriously, give that question some thought.

[FLGTFAN]

Originally Posted by usa318

Sportscar Fans:

I have been attending the Sebring 12 hours continually since 1998. Ferrari won my first year, then the V12LMR, and since then its been the Audi show. I've always hoped for a factory effort to challenge Audi, and even as recently as last year Audi was calling for a real challenge, for someone to step-up.

Well...... here it is. Acura has built an amazing program to challenge Audi in the ALMS specifically.

Unfortunately, Audi has decided to drop out of the series (less Sebring), while at the same time building the R15.

Personally, I'm OUTRAGED.... and want to make a point during the race weekend. I have contemplated distributing small shirt stickers with the attached image (Audi's Spirit < Acura's Challenge). Remember the old Audi advertisements? (Audi > Competition)

My question: Am i the only one who would be interested and appreciative of this? Is there a better slogan i could use?

Is this stupid?

Your comments are greatly appreciated....

Hunter

SEE IMAGE AT LINK BELOW

http://www.sebringfans.com/forums/in...tach=518;image

I say do it. Some people around here (and everywhere) take things a little too seriously. The rank and file Audi guys will probably chuckle. The Acura guys will definitely chuckle. Most people will not have a clue. If I saw you I would give a thumbs up. Cheers.

[cmk]

I'm sure any ex-Champion Racing personnel around the paddock will have a right laugh.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

I say do it . If I saw you I would give a thumbs up. Cheers.

Then I suggest some of your American car manufacturers and chassis designers support your own series .

2 Corvettes and a Panoz from America to support your series , brilliant effort !!!

Comments like this makes me wish that all European manufacturers withdraw from ALMS ..... see what kind of a championship you have then .

Audi doesnt have the luxery of an 80 billion loan to keep afloat , because they have done it correctly for a very long time , the same cannot be said for American car manufacturers .

I agree , some folk take things way too seriously ..... but some are just plain stupid too !!!

[FLGTFAN]

Originally Posted by cmk

I'm sure any ex-Champion Racing personnel around the paddock will have a right laugh.

Yeah, as if some random racing fan who disagrees with Audi's decision to shut down their jobs is the one responsible.

[FLGTFAN]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Then I suggest some of your American car manufacturers and chassis designers support your own series .

2 Corvettes and a Panoz from America to support your series , brilliant effort !!!

Comments like this makes me wish that all European manufacturers withdraw from ALMS ..... see what kind of a championship you have then .

Audi doesnt have the luxery of an 80 billion loan to keep afloat , because they have done it correctly for a very long time , the same cannot be said for American car manufacturers .

I agree , some folk take things way too seriously ..... but some are just plain stupid too !!!

Nationalism has no relevance here. I would never criticize Austria and their non-(A)LMS manufacturers.

[The Badger]

Im not Austrian , Im Irish . Just live here mate .

Austria doesnt have any car manufacturers , but a few decent teams .

And no ..... you critisize Audi for pulling out of the ALMS after 8 years of supporting it . Well , as it is an American series , I suggest it is supported by American companies . There is no nationalistic arguement here , just a fact .

Folk are slagging off Audi ..... for what ? ..... Why ? ..... What have they done wrong ? .....

[werner]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

let's compare.

f1: international series, nominally anchored in Europe. no team or car transfer elsewhere. a media profile and sponsor cost unsurpassed, and out of anyone else's league. not a competitor for sponsorship or support.

WTCC: touring cars, on par with GT budgets. again, not relevant to a discussion about why there aren't more prototypes in the ALMS.

F1 or WTCC may be no option for potential LMS-teams to run, but the teams that do run WTCC and F1 fish for sponsormoney in the same pond. And mediaconsumers also have to choose what they watch, and their time is limited. And venues don't have unlimited amounts of resources to organize events. For instance Zandvoort is only allowed to organize 2 events per year that produce a lot of noise. For that reason, the A1-GP (hey, we did forget that one in the comparison) and DTM-races are the only large international events that are kept there. Even Zandvoort's own baby, the F3-masters had to be held elsewhere (Zolder Belgium)
So I conclude that the LMS definitely has more competition compared to the ALMS.
It must be said offcourse that Europe has more inhabitants than the USA and Canada, about twice as much I think.

[Speed-King]

It must be said offcourse that Europe has more inhabitants than the USA and Canada, about twice as much I think.

It all depends on how you define Europe.
Currently the EU has around 500 million inhabitants, whereas the USA have around 300, with another 30 or so for Canada.
But then there are (with no disrespect at all to them!) several countries in the EU, which will most probably play any role in the economics of major league sportscar racing for at least the next decade.

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by werner

F1 or WTCC may be no option for potential LMS-teams to run, but the teams that do run WTCC and F1 fish for sponsormoney in the same pond.

actually, they pretty clearly don't. look at the backing on the f1 grid. we've got major banks (credit suisse, RBS, ING, Santander), telecom companies (Vodafone, AT&T), oil companies (Shell, ExxonMobil, Petronas), a cigarette manufacturer (Marlboro), consumer electronics (Panasonic, Philips). they're in for the tune of $40-80 million each, or more (i don't even want to imagine how much Philip Morris pay Ferrari). For that money, you could sponsor the entire LMS prototype grid almost. The only comparable sponsor is Total, with the Peugeots. So clearly, we're not talking about the same pond. F1 sponsors want global exposure, and are willing to pay for it.

WTCC does not go after the same demographic as LMS, and runs a completely different profile of sponsors. Look at the grid. you've got BMW backed by their own marketing department and spare parts division, and SEAT's backed by Repsol (a Spanish company supporting a (nominally) Spanish company).

Who backs the prototypes? I've seen boutique banks, private equity, and pay driver's/owner's own firms. the only real sponsorship comparable that i can see would be the grand turismo/playstation backing on the pescarolo's.

And mediaconsumers also have to choose what they watch, and their time is limited. And venues don't have unlimited amounts of resources to organize events. For instance Zandvoort is only allowed to organize 2 events per year that produce a lot of noise. For that reason, the A1-GP (hey, we did forget that one in the comparison) and DTM-races are the only large international events that are kept there. Even Zandvoort's own baby, the F3-masters had to be held elsewhere (Zolder Belgium)
So I conclude that the LMS definitely has more competition compared to the ALMS.

i think you're missing the point of the subject. it's not about the number of races, it's about why there are less prototypes in the ALMS than in the LMS. and my point is that there is significantly more competition for the same level of budget, from the same types of companies, than there is in Europe for the same demographic.

It must be said offcourse that Europe has more inhabitants than the USA and Canada, about twice as much I think.

As has been said, it depends on the definition. And that would also add an extra dimension to the discussion which i don't think any of us has the intelligence to be able to juggle accurately...

[wills]

[

[wills]

Originally Posted by cmk

I take it you never watch the ALMS, or you would have noticed half the races are broadcast on major networks rather than on Speed.

My bad, I forgot to notice that NBC did a few races too and screwed that up. Lucky that only MotorsTV(who are dedicated to their races) broadcast it in the UK. I'm just dissapointed that Audi has missed a good chance to race DIRECTLY with another major manufacturer backed P1 car especially as they have wanted this moment to happen for a long time.

Sebring is gonna be a cracker though so I'm definately gonna try not to miss it.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

Who backs the prototypes? I've seen boutique banks, private equity, and pay driver's/owner's own firms. the only real sponsorship comparable that i can see would be the grand turismo/playstation backing on the pescarolo's.

You mean there are no major sponsors backing the privateers in LMS (I agree with that)....so I conclude NASCAR and IRL are no competition for privateers in ALMS.

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by FIRE

You mean there are no major sponsors backing the privateers in LMS (I agree with that)....so I conclude NASCAR and IRL are no competition for privateers in ALMS.

based on what? what is the similarity between the ALMS and LMS in terms of the racing environment they compete in? as i said, many sponsors of similar demographics to sports cars were in the IRL, and many sponsors of equivalent financial range are in nascar. and in total, there's about 80-90 of those cars competing for the same sponsor interest.

LMS prototype teams don't face that competition for their sponsors (such as they are)...

[JAG]

If the LMS ran a schedule similar to the Group C World Championship grids would be half the size, IMO. The ALMS is running a similar schedule to IMSA GTP, fine when the economies good, the manufacturer's will put on a great show, not so good when there's a downturn.

The LMS attracts teams from different formulas, it's value for money, and can even be an addition to other programs.

The ALMS is a huge commitment, it's difficult to put together a program without a big sponsor or very wealthy individual. You could even look at someone like Panoz, challenging Audi for 10+ rounds, plus Le Mans was a big commitment, if there were only 5-6 rounds maybe the program could have continued, or alternative funding sort.

I don't know, I just look at the most popular, core, ALMS rounds and think the series could attract LMS like entries if 5 or 6 rounds were cancelled. You may lose some factory support, you could gain others.