New Safety Car Regs

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by speedy jon

if there is more than one flaggy

Too rare to consider, and what do you do when there isn't at some or all posts.

Previous posts haven't said waved or stationary yellows at all posts - I'd assumed stationary, allowing us to use the waved where we wanted to get additional information to the driver, although as said, if they're behaving as they should, it shouldn't be necessary anyway. The problem with waved yellow is that you can't easily wave it and hold the SC board (especially if you have course vehicles out and need a white as well) and if it's an extended SC period it's hard work. Would help if all circuits followed Donington's SC board system.

[Hepatic]

SC and stationary yellow at all posts, waved at the post preceding the incident. No need to wave it as the train passes, only in the incident area. That avoids the need for a 2nd yellow, as pointed out we are not always blessed with enough flaggies to go around. Think we did that at the VdeV last year but might be wrong!

as for greens why not just show it at start and nowhere else? or maybe at least repeat at 1st couple of posts in case anyone misses the first? stops people trying to OT before the line that way, despite withdrawal of yellows. in fact that along with the withdrawal of the SC boards will help people towards the back get ready for the restart, esp if they dont have radio

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

And no-one mention Castle Combe or Cadwell pit lanes

Good point Alan, Mallory would be a bit tricky too, but the SC car and train going down the pit lane is just an option available to the Clerk if they wish to use it (as is the SC itself).

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Previous posts haven't said waved or stationary yellows at all posts - I'd assumed stationary

3.14.4 ...waved yellow flags and “SC” boards will flow around the circuit in both directions...

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by PieMan

3.14.4 ...waved yellow flags and “SC” boards will flow around the circuit in both directions...

So it's no longer going to be a case of displaying a waved yellow when the SC and train is in your sector, and displaying a stationary yellow at other times? I might be missing something, but I can't see a problem with that procedure so why change it?

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by RIXGE

I dont think for one moment that a flag marshal will be scrutinized for using some common sense.

[RIXGE]

Yeah i guess on reflection !

[JimW]

These are the regulations currently on the MSA site.

Regards

Jim

[Chris Hobson]

As the chair of the working party that has done this rewrite can i offer a few comments?

The idea was to bring consistency to the varied rules being used until now, to improve the safety aspect and to try to bring us as close as possible to the FIA regs whilst keeping ours practical for short manned meetings.

Please do not use the sets already circulating - I have spent a good deal of time today on the phone and e-mails with the MSA and the other clubs; reps doing some minor revisions. As soon as I get the definitive set I will post them here, on John newmans site and on the marshals club website. They will also be sent to all MSA trainers.

To clarify
1.

[Chris Hobson]

OOPS - finger problem

As the chair of the working party that has done this rewrite can i offer a few comments?

The idea was to bring consistency to the varied rules being used until now, to improve the safety aspect and to try to bring us as close as possible to the FIA regs whilst keeping ours practical for short manned meetings.

Please do not use the sets already circulating - I have spent a good deal of time today on the phone and e-mails with the MSA and the other clubs; reps doing some minor revisions. As soon as I get the definitive set I will post them here, on John newmans site and on the marshals club website. They will also be sent to all MSA trainers and included in a clerks/stewards bulletin.

To clarify
1. No overtaking until passing the green flag on the start/finish line
2. Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the Clerk of the Course. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.
3. We will be adding the rules for starting/finishing under safety car

So hang fire until i get the changes up here.

Any questions - send me an e-mail

[Chris Hobson]

As promised - here are the final Safety Car regs (said he hopefully!). Please ensure you understand them - any queries please drop me an e-mail - also if there are any questions during the season.

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The following Safety Car Procedures are as reviewed by the Race Committee January 2009, these Procedures (if your Regulations are to provide for a Safety Car) are to be accepted in their entirety, in order for a National standard of operation to be achieved. The only part of these regulations which can be altered is 3.14.13. all other Procedures must remain unchanged.

Thank you for your co-operation
Cheryl Lynch
Race, Speed & Kart Executive

3.14 Operation of Safety Car

3.14.1 The Safety Car will be brought into operation to neutralise a race upon the sole decision of the Clerk of the Course. The Safety Car will be driven by an experienced circuit driver (in accordance with GR B27) and will carry an observer capable of recognising all competing cars and who is in permanent radio contact with race control.

3.14.2 The Safety Car, yellow/amber lights illuminated, will normally join and exit the circuit from the pit lane and the Safety Car boards will be shown initially from the start-line. If these locations are to be varied specific written instructions and verbal briefings will be issued detailing the exact locations to be used.

3.14.3 On the order from the Clerk of the Course, the Safety Car will join the circuit with its revolving lights on, regardless of where the race leader is.

3.14.4 When the order is given to deploy the Safety Car a waved yellow flag and “SC” board will be displayed at the start finish line. The waved yellow flags and “SC” boards will flow around the circuit in both directions, as an adjacent post displays both their waved yellow flag and “SC” board. This system may be supplemented by a message being simultaneously broadcast to all marshals’ posts if such a communication system is available.

3.14.5 Flashing yellow lights may also be used at the start-line and at other points around the circuit.

3.14.6 All competing cars, when notified of the Safety Car intervention (by the flag signals, “SC” boards, or by any other means) will reduce speed and line up behind the Safety Car, no more than 5 car lengths apart, and maintaining the same speed as it. Overtaking or overlapping of any other competing car during a Safety Car intervention is forbidden. Overtaking of a Safety Car is forbidden unless the particular competitor concerned is signalled to overtake the Safety Car by the observer in the Safety Car.

3.14.7 When ordered to do so by the Clerk of the Course, the observer in the Safety Car will wave past any cars between the Safety Car and the race leader. These cars will continue at reduced speed and without overtaking until they reach the line of cars behind the Safety Car.

3.14.8 While the safety car is in operation, competing cars may enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when signalled to do so and not when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing the pit exit. A car re-joining the track must proceed at an appropriate speed until it reaches the end of the line of cars behind the Safety Car.

3.14.9 The Safety Car will remain in operation until at least the majority of competing cars on the circuit are lined up behind it.

3.14.10 When the Clerk of the Course calls in the Safety Car it will extinguish the yellow/amber flashing lights prior to exiting the circuit. This would normally be such that a minimum of 25% of a lap for circuits over 2 miles and 50% of a lap for circuits under 2 miles should be completed by the Safety Car with its lights extinguished.

3.14.11 Following the safety car extinguishing its lights, and prior to passing the green flag, the race leader will maintain the pace set by the Safety Car. The race leader will dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than five car lengths behind it. In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are extinguished drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

3.14.12 As the Safety Car is approaching the pit entry, the green flag will be displayed at the start finish line and the “SC” board withdrawn. Following this display of the start signal yellow flags and “SC” boards at the marshals posts will be withdrawn and be replaced with a waved green flag for one lap. The waved green flag will flow around the circuit in both directions, as an adjacent post displays their waved green flag. This system may be supplemented by a message being simultaneously broadcast to all marshals’ posts if such a communication system is available. Overtaking remains strictly forbidden until the start signal is passed.

3.14.13 Each lap covered while the Safety Car is in service will be counted as a race lap unless specified to the contrary in Championship regulations.

3.14.14. Under certain circumstances the Clerk of the Course may ask the Safety Car to use the pit lane. In this case, and provided its yellow/amber lights remain illuminated, all cars must follow it into the pit lane without overtaking. Any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may stop at its designated garage area.


Final/15Jan09

[Woolley]

Thanks for that, Chris, very clear and easy to follow. While there are a couple of things I'd do differently, I understand the reason for moving towards FIA systems which influenced the decisions made.

Standardised rules are a wonderful improvement - almost the stuff of dreams for us flaggies, and the change to flags going both ways around the circuit will, I believe, improve safety both for marshals and drivers.

I applaud this change which is in my opinion a huge step forward. Now if we could just persuade drivers to obey yellows properly, we wouldn't need to use the new regs!

[Chris Hobson]

Unfortunately the link I was given did not have the final final version - here are the changes we agreed yesterday.

These have been sent out in a Clerks and Stewards Bulletin I will post the version that incorporates these ASAP.

My apologies for any confusion - that's what you get when you try to get things out quickly!
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Following the recent issue (15th January 2009) of updated Safety Car Procedures for National Implementation and the initial Clerks & Stewards Seminars, it has become apparent that a clarification was needed in respect of 3.14.12. of these Procedures. In addition, although not contained within the original document we were asked to include standard Starting/Stopping of a Race whilst under Safety Car Control, these have been included and are numbered 3.14.15., 3.14.16 and 3.14.17.
The complete (amended) Safety Car Procedures can be found here.

3.14.12 As the Safety Car is approaching the pit entry, the green flag will be displayed at the start/finish line and the “SC” board withdrawn. Following this display of the start signal yellow flags and “SC” boards at the marshals posts will be withdrawn and be replaced with a waved green flag for one lap. The waved green flag will flow around the circuit in both directions, as an adjacent post displays their waved green flag. This system may be supplemented by a message being simultaneously broadcast to all marshals’ posts if such a communication system is available. Overtaking remains strictly forbidden until the start signal at the start/finish line is passed.

3.14.15. Should it be necessary to stop a race during a Safety Car deployment the Safety Car, with all competing vehicles following, will pass through the red flag at the start/finish line, complete one further lap at reduced speed and then, once the Safety Car comes to a stop at a position indicated by the Safety Car observer (which will usually be either the grid or Parc Fermé), all competing cars must stop behind it unless otherwise directed.
3.14.16.In exceptional circumstances the following may apply:
(i) The race may be started behind the Safety Car. In this case its revolving yellow/amber lights will be turned on at the two-minute signal. This is the signal to the Entrants/Drivers that the race will be started behind the Safety Car and it will remain at the front of the grid during the remainder of the countdown. When the Green Flag is shown at the Start/Finish Line, the Safety Car will leave the grid and all cars will follow in single file in grid order no more than 5 (five) car lengths apart. The race will be deemed to have started when the Safety Car leaves the grid and the Green Flag is displayed.
(ii) Cars will leave the grid in single file grid order behind the Safety Car under the instruction of the Chief Start/Finish Line Marshal. Cars will remain in single file without overtaking, except that a car that falls behind may regain its grid position if the cars behind it could not avoid passing without unduly delaying the remainder of the field. In this case, Drivers may carefully overtake to re-establish their original starting grid order. If a car falls to the back of the grid, it must remain at the back of the grid.
(iii) Any car(s) delayed leaving the grid may not overtake another moving car if stationary after the remainder of the cars had crossed the line. In this case the car(s) shall remain at the back of the grid, in the order they left the grid.
(iv) A time penalty or Drive Through Penalty may be imposed on any Driver who, in the opinion of the Clerk of the Course, unnecessarily overtakes another Driver during these laps.
(v) The “SC” boards and Yellow Flags will be displayed at Marshals' Signalling Posts around the circuit until the Clerk of the Course withdraws the Safety Car from use in accordance with Regulation 3.14.10, 3.14.11. and 3.14.12.
(vi) All laps undertaken in this start procedure will be deemed to be counted as race laps

3.14.17.Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the Clerk of the Course. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

[Norbert]

This is excellent news.

The main thing is that now we have ONE set of Safety Car Regulations as opposed to 'what championship is it today? Does that mean it is this set of Safety Car Regulations?'

There are other obvious improvements with the boards and flags going both ways around the circuit but the yellow flag marshal will now need arms like Popeye if they have to wave the flag continuously.

I am sure that if any further changes are needed as a result of seeing how these new regulations work they will be incorporated for 2010?

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by Norbert

This is excellent news.

The main thing is that now we have ONE set of Safety Car Regulations as opposed to 'what championship is it today? Does that mean it is this set of Safety Car Regulations?'

There are other obvious improvements with the boards and flags going both ways around the circuit but the yellow flag marshal will now need arms like Popeye if they have to wave the flag continuously.

I am sure that if any further changes are needed as a result of seeing how these new regulations work they will be incorporated for 2010?

Maybe, instead of waving the yellow, we could use flashing yellow lights attached to the SC board? (to be fixed like the DP ones) Thereby freeing up the flaggie to wave the yellow at the site of the incident? Just my two pennys for what they are worth.

ETA Or a SC board made up with the letters made of flashing yellow LED's?

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by RIXGE

I dont think for one moment that a flag marshal will be scrutinized for using some common sense.

Originally Posted by Norbert

but the yellow flag marshal will now need arms like Popeye if they have to wave the flag continuously.

I have a sneaky feeling that the two of these will be combined and we will rapidly see the re-introduction of a (semi-involuntary) stationary yellow flag, particularly at single-manned posts, durning longer SC periods.

[bluebeard]

Hmmmm waved yellows all round the circuit? how do we now advise where the incident is/marshals working trackside? And waved greens afterwards but no overtaking before they cross the start finish line? now we can report cars for overtaking under GREEN!!!

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by Norbert

...the yellow flag marshal will now need arms like Popeye if they have to wave the flag continuously

Don't worry - before making your way out to post, you will be issued with a tin of spinach along with your flags and SC board.

[Woolley]

I consider that after a couple of laps a waggled flag constitutes the same as waved to all intents and purposes.

Shouldn't need to advise where marshals are working as everybody should be behaving anyway. If you need cover, the american system of someone standing in advance facing the traffic and directing where they should go works extremely well. They could always take a spare yellow with them. I assume excess speed under an SC caution will be a hanging offence, and not necessarily by the neck...

The rest will come out in the wash, and I would hope that there is leeway for review as the season progresses.

[John Newman]

The amendments have now been updated on http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk
Let's see how long this one lasts!

[Stuart H]

Think we should stick to the old system. When the Saftey car is deployed static yellows round the circuit except where the incident is where the said yellow flag is waved.

Saftey car is pulled into the pits; waved green at startline static green follows the lead race car. Easy!!

[Bob Pearson]

From a drivers perspective I think the new rules are an improvement, especially the green going out in both direstions at the restart. If there is a big field it saves the mid to rear runners who cant see the lights on the safety car from having to assume each lap is going to be a restart and so going for a run through the last corner and risking a nose to tail when someone has to brake.
Withoout radio contact safety cars, like the black and yellow flag always pose a danger of more accidents.
I have been lucky for a long time racing with BARC because I have only raced under safety car rules once, so I have never really known the details.
Someone tell me, are you supposed to race back to the start or not when the SC board is shown?
It would make a lot of sense if we did, it would reduce the lkelihood of someone climbing over the back of a car in front when only the leader of a bunch has seen the board.

[Asp]

Dale Wells told us today at Croft, as regards the "waved yellows" situation, that we are not expected to read the new regulations to the letter and, as far as he's concerned, the "stationary until you have the pack" method hasn't changed. Which should save our arms!

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by Asp

Dale Wells told us today at Croft, as regards the "waved yellows" situation, that we are not expected to read the new regulations to the letter and, as far as he's concerned, the "stationary until you have the pack" method hasn't changed. Which should save our arms!

Is that BARC specific only then ?
Seems odd to amend the regulations,then not adhere to them,recipe for further confusion imo
Follow the regs to the letter,not worth having them otherwise

[Justin Moran]

I think you may have opened one of these Mark!