Penske Out

[Jay]

err....I'd still remind you that Cart still does have all of the races that are actually watched by more than a few people in trailers in the Southern US....and drivers that people have actually heard of... ...and teams that are actually aware that other countries exist...and that there's a market there too!

IRL has successful races that will draw consistent full crowds where? Indianapolis is usually full...are there others?

Cart on the other hand has full crowds guaranteed every year at...Monterrey Mexico, Long Beach, Motegi Japan, Milwaukee, Laguna Seca, Portland, Toronto, Cleveland, Vancouver, (undoubtably) Montreal, the two races in Europe, and of course the every successful Surfers Paradise. Yes, there are events with less than full grandstands, but most arent...

And are IRL races actually televised? I mean, apart from late at night between infomercials? They're rarely televised live here(Ontario). Cart on the other hand has a new TV deal which might even get qualifying televised next year.

really...apart from Cart's engine troubles (which will undoubtably be sorted out) ...they're really doing a lot better than IRL.

[mac]

Oh Roger, don't let the door hit you on the ar$e on the way out.

Roll on CART '02.

[macdaddy]

Can't blame Gil and Helio for not wanting to switch. That does not surprise me in the least. Not so long ago, Gil turned down an offer to drive for Stewart GP so that he could stay in CART. And that was before he signed with Penkse. He said that he enjoyed racing in the series more than he would enjoy the F1 money. And I'm sure that he wanted to defend his consecutive championships. As I'm sure that both drivers revelled the international exposure. But what these guys must remember is that neither of them would be champions if not for the support and faith of Roger Penske. Gil would not be a two-time champion. Helio wouldn't have a ring from Indianapolis. I dare say that neither one of them would be "household names" as they are now. And so now is the time that they must return some of this loyalty. They each have but one year left on their contracts. It is their duty to go out there and perform. And win. Come back to CART next year, if you wish. Or if Roger wishes. But for now, you drive the Marlboro car. Here's your paycheque.

I'm happy for Jay that he no longer has to be offended by the two ugly cars. Ever stood beside one? They ain't ugly. "One less mouthy owner to keep happy". Don't forget who you're talking about here. "Two less Brazilians". Hey, I love CART for the depth of talent. Don't hardly care if they're from Iceland or Mozambique. Just so long as they're the best of the best. "Room for two more drivers. Another team perhaps?" There's always been room for two more drivers. Or four. Now there's room for six. Another small-budget team folds, and there'll be room for more! Hurray! I love it when the field gets smaller, because that means that there's room for more!

But I believe that there was no shortage of companies willing to sponsor Team Penske. So if Marlboro wanted to go IRL, then Marlboro should have gone IRL, but without Penske. I believe that he should have stayed with CART, albeit under new sponsorship. Let Marlboro sponsor some American drivers to promote their American product. Team Penske could have gone on as they were. They haven't always been Marlboro, let's not forget. There was Pennzoil, Gould... But it's always been Team Penske. And they've always won championships regardless of the livery.

I would like to come back and read this thread in two years' time. Roger Penske may prove either the fool or the genious.

[JPBeltoise]

I haven't quite figured out Dr. Austin's philosophy regarding foreign drivers in the USA, yet (believe it or not...). Here's what Dr. Austin wrote on December 7th:

"You know, I'm just so sick of it. Young American talent gets pushed out of jobs in their own country by ungrateful foriegners [sic]. Go home!"

Now here is what Dr. Austin wrote some time ago (while in the process of shredding one of my earlier posts!):

"The IRL is open to anyone who can get through tech inspection and go fast enough to get in. No one qualified is excluded. The IRL guys will race against anyone who shows up. If they get beat, so what?" (This was from a thread called "No more CART for me) -- November 17th).

So here's what I'm trying to understand: On the one hand, Dr. Austin praises the IRL for doing *something* (I'm not sure just what) that gives young American drivers a chance to compete in open wheel racing -- a chance that he apparently believes no longer exists in CART. On the other hand, the arrival of Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves (along with the other foreign drivers already in the IRL) suggests that the IRL is beginning to see the sort of influx of well-funded South American and European drivers that entered CART a decade ago -- which could easily take seats away from American drivers. If this proves to be so, (and it seems likely, given the current state of CART), will Dr. Austin still praise the IRL for its welcoming attitude toward foreign drivers (as he did in his earlier post), or would he expect Tony George to do something to send the "ungrateful foriegners" [sic] home, as his rather hostile recent post would suggest?

[Jay]

"I'm happy for Jay that he no longer has to be offended by the two ugly cars. Ever stood beside one?" Yup! Which is why I can make such a statement. But really, the Cart machines are beautiful...they just sometimes have horrible paint jobs!

macdaddy, unlike an IRL fan, I also don't care where the drivers come from. Which is one reason why I don't care how many Americans are in the field. I said there are two less Brazilians, in the same way I'd say there are two less Canadians if Team Player's left. There will undoubtably more where they came from.

There's no denying that Cart does have a number of wrinkles to sort out in management and with their engine suppliers. But, they still have a much larger market, and much larger fan base, and much better drivers than IRL will ever have. They just need to take advantage of it!

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JPBeltoise

"I haven't quite figured out Dr. Austin's philosophy regarding foreign drivers in the USA,"

I want to see more Americans in American OW racing. If foriegn drivers want to come here, ok. I'de like to see American sponsors insist that Americans be put in the cars. Tecate insists on Mexacans.
Marlboro Brazil is throwing all kinds of money to get Brazillians in. Players has never had a driver that wasn't Canadian. I just want equal footing. When a proven former champion like Jimmy Vasser runs around in a plain unsponsored car, something is clearly wrong. Bryan Herta ran in Endeck colors toward the season's end, but just who do you think Jerry Forsythe is? It isn't in Pat Patrick or Jerry forysthe's interest to pay their driver's way out of their own pockets. The reason there are no more americans in CART is because there is no one to pay for it. I didn't say I had an answer.

Where are the American sponsors?


"So here's what I'm trying to understand: On the one hand, Dr. Austin praises the IRL for doing *something* (I'm not sure just what) that gives young American drivers a chance to compete in open wheel"

I don't believe I ever said that the IRL is doing anything about the problem, but the team owners are by hiring more Americans. I do not know if the IRL is helping subsidise them, but i would not be against Tony investing money in his own series. This is America and it is Tony's Speedway, league and money.

I don't have access to the records, but there is talk that Sara Fisher is financed by TG. Strapped IRL teams seem to mysteriously have enough money to go on, so the money must be coming from somewhere. There is no denying that there are more American drivers in the IRL.




" On the other hand, the arrival of Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves (along with the other foreign drivers already in the IRL) suggests that the IRL is beginning to see the sort of influx of well-funded South American and European drivers that entered CART a decade ago -- which could easily take seats away from American drivers."

Which is criminal. The sport has gotten so stupidly expensive that talent no longer counts. It was great when CART was healthy because all the funded foriegn drivers raced there and the IRL had people stepping up out of raw talent like the lazier brothers and Sam. And Robbie Buhl who never got anything but junk to race in CART with. Sure, there were funded guys like, well, I don't want to embarrass the guy because he is a real gent, but there were funded guys who were over their heads. Just like everywhere.


"will Dr. Austin still praise the IRL for its welcoming attitude toward foreign drivers (as he did in his earlier post),"

Who the hell wants quotas? Equal footing is all that can reasonably be asked and let the best drivers get the good rides. Buhl is just one example of a good american driver who didn't get a fair chance until the IRL. No one in CART ever looked at Sam. And Buddy Lazier was treated like dirt and drove **** in CART.



"or would he expect Tony George to do something to send the "ungrateful foriegners home"

I was referring to Gil and Helio who are indeed, "ungrateful foriegners" if they don't appreciate the opportunity they have at Penske. If they copmplain about it, Roger can just cut them loose and see if they can maybe get on with Minardi or Coyne. They are with the best team and have the very best of everything at their disposal. That isn't good enough? And you think the term "ungrateful" doesn't apply here? The opportunity to go into the greatest race in the world with it's all time winningest team and defending champions? How many good Americans would grab that with both hands? But Gil and Helio are whingeing. Hey, Roger, bounce them out into the street and see if Ryan Newman wouldn't be grateful for a chance. Give me a call, Roger! I'll do it and be happy about it. I won't spit in your face in public and whine that what you would be giving me isn't good enough.


"as his rather hostile recent post would suggest?"

Thanks for twisting it to suit your own purpose.

I'm not hostile towards anyone who comes to this country and is grateful that they are accepted and given opportunities they would never get in their own country. Anyone who wants to come in and take money out of America, take American's jobs and then pay no taxes is getting a bargain. They should shut up and appreciate what they have. Go ahead and whine, Roger can put me in the car and I will be a grateful and faithful employee. so would hundfreds of other Americans.

Gil and Helio come from a country that is a dump. The everyday people are dirt poor. The F-1 teams live in terror when they go there because one of more of them is held up at gun point almost every year.
Most of the drivers won't take their families with them. But all of a sudden America and it's biggest race isn't good enough anymore. Yes, I am hostile with that. Foriegners are ok. Ungrateful foriegners know the way home.

So maybe my tolerance is a little low after 5000 of my people were brutally murdered. Maybe i think it would do America and it's people a hell of a lot of good to see their heros triumph. We need more Michael Andrettis, but they are not getting their chance in CART. And their chance in the IRL may have passed as well.

[macdaddy]

One of the things I love most about CART is the international field. And Indy has always had foreign entries. True that there are few Americans. What is needed is for a couple of American-sponsored teams to run programs similar to that of Players.

[paulzinho]

Tim Cindric President of Penske has said that Marlboro were the key factor in their decision to switch and that CARTs problems had no influence on what they did.

Money rules.

[Dr. Austin]

We have covered so much ground that there is plenty of room for misunderstanding here.So one more statement to clear things up and I wish to be done with this.

I have nothing at all against foriegners, per sey. What I have a problem with is Americans are struggling to get good rifdes in
either series and Gil and Helio are whingeing about having the best of everything that money can buy. Do you think Brian Herta, Al jr, Alex Baron, Memo Gidley, etc, etc would have any problem dropping everything and hopping in a Penske and doing the IRL tour? No way! And the line is a lot longer than just these guys.

No, all of the currently unemployed Americans would take the first decent car they were offered, but for some, the Penske ride is no longer good enough. If Gil and Helio's hearts aren't in it, cut them loose and give it to someone who will throw their soul into making the best of it. People don't deserve what they don't appreciate.

[mac]

Austin - Sorry Gil and Helio didn't grow up in the States. Sorry they don't have the same feelings towards the Indy 500 and circle racing that you do. I don't think they have ever been ungrateful. Did you see after the race at Surfers this year when Gil clinched the championship (probably not, it wasn't in America )? No one could say Gil was ungrateful. The hug he gave Roger was touching, and the emotion towards the whole team was unmistakable. Same thing with Helio at Indy.

Just because they are Brazilian and didn't grow up watching guys driving around in circles, or worshipping the IMS, doesn't mean they are any less grateful than anyone else. Indy 500 - the greatest race in the world. I reckon Gil and Helio would want to win the Brazilian GP or a Brazilian CART race as much as the Indy 500, if not more.

As a matter of fact, the Indy 500 has nothing to do with Gil and Helio's frustration. They got to run there last year (while still in CART), and happened to do pretty well.

Personally, I can understand their frustration. Growing up as road course racers, then racing in the most competitive and exciting series in the world, a series that enables them to be exposed to their homeland and the rest of the world, in the best team in that series. I can understand their frustration at being told that they have to go and race in a series that only turns left, is only really popular in the US, uses cars that are slower than the cars they have been driving, has a lesser quality of competition and limits any future career possibilities all because the sponsors thought that they could kill a few more Americans by racing in the IRL.

[JPBeltoise]

Dr. Austin --

I just logged on and read that you feel this topic has been adequately explored, and you're probably right. But I had already prepared this reply, so I figure I'll post it anyway, at this point:

---------

Dr. Austin, your replies are certainly nothing if not thorough! I don't think I can reply quite as completely as you did, but here are some thoughts in reponse to your last post to me (all quotes from your post to this thread on Dec 8.)

"I'd like to see American sponsors insist that Americans be put in the cars. Tecate insists on Mexicans. Marlboro Brazil is thowing all kinds of money to get Brazilians in....The reason there are no more Americans in CART is because there is no one to pay for it... Where are the American sponsors?" First, a technical point -- I thought that Penske's pair of Brazilians are sponsored by Marlboro North America (that being the reason that Penske feels the need to compete at Indianapolis, etc.). I'm not arguing that this disproves your point about the inadequacy of American sponsors, but it does suggest that Gil and Helio are where they are by virtue of their talent, not their nationality. But, concerning the larger issue of American sponsors -- perhaps, in the words of that over-used cliche, "we have met the enemy, and he is us" (well, not the people on this forum, maybe, but the American sports audience in general). What I mean is that American sponsors aren't really interested in supporting young American open-wheel racing drivers because the sport is so far from the attention of most American sports fans. So I don't think it's fair to harbor any ill will toward foreign drivers (or the teams that employ them) for the relative ease with which they find private backing to obtain CART (or IRL) seats -- particularly when they have also shown talent in the lower formulae. It's just that sponsors in those countries know that they have access to a public which is very interested in the sport.

"I was referring to Gil and Helio who are indeed, 'ungrateful foreigners' if they don't appreciate the opportunity they have at Penske... How many good Americans would grab that with both hands? But Gil and Helio are whingeing. Hey Roger, bounce them out into the street and see if Ryan Newman wouldn't be grateful for a chance. Give me a call, Roger! I'll do it and be happy about it. I won't spit in your face in public and complain..." I just want to point out that it's a little premature to accuse Gil and Helio of complaining. All I've seen is a single reference in Autosport that says they are privately expressing some dissatisfaction with the decision. I don't think it's surprising that a couple of drivers brought up on road-racing, and who have clearly loved driving in the CART series, would be at least a little unhappy that a combination of politics and economics have pushed them into an all-oval series. Anyway, my point is simply that, to my knowledge, Gil and Helio have remained supportive of Roger Penske in public, and haven't "spit in his face" about the move to the IRL. And I agree with you that, as long as they remain employed by him, that's exactly what they should do, no matter what their personal, and privately-expressed, feelings are.

"Gil and Helio come from a country that is a dump. The everyday people are dirt poor..." I think it is a little rude to characterize another person's country in that way. I've been to Brazil, both in Rio de Janiero (for the inaugural CART race in 1996, in fact!) and out into the countryside a little, and I wouldn't call it a dump at all. Granted, their standard of living is not as high as in the United States, but there are certainly plenty of shopping malls, cinemas, office buildings, and all the other trappings of modern life we expect. And, not only did we not experience any crime at all, but when our rental car broke down, we found that the attendants at the local filling station and garage were more than helpful in getting us back on the road, despite my woeful attempts to communicate in Portuguese. Obviously there are areas of Rio de Janiero and Sao Paulo that wealthy northerners should avoid, but isn't that true of most large American cities, too? Remember the spate of attacks on foreign tourists in Florida a couple of years ago?

"So maybe my tolerance is a little low after 5000 of my people were brutally murdered." I can sympathize with you here, certainly, but I just want to point out that, as I recall, Gil de Ferran made a trip to New York City to present a CART check to the relief effort, and came away very moved by what he saw of Ground Zero. So, while I also feel some antipathy to those of other nationalities who don't support our country at this time, I'm not sure that it's relevant to this discussion, because the entire CART community, to my knowledge, has been very supportive of the United States ever since September 11.

"Thanks for twisting it to suit your own purpose. I'm not hostile to anyone who comes to this country and is grateful..." Sorry if my characterization of your reponse as "hostile" was incorrect. It did seem that way to me, but that's part of the problem with these forum discussions, I suppose. It's difficult to interpret a person's attitude when you can't see his (or her) face. Maybe we should start using those smilie things...

[mac]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
I won't spit in your face in public and whine that what you would be giving me isn't good enough.

As JP has pointed out, I too have not seen any evidence of Gil or Helio complaining in public. If you have, could you please make a reference to the source so I can check it out? From everything I've seen, they have been perfect gentlemen in public.

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
Gil and Helio come from a country that is a dump. The everyday people are dirt poor. The F-1 teams live in terror when they go there because one of more of them is held up at gun point almost every year.
Most of the drivers won't take their families with them. But all of a sudden America and it's biggest race isn't good enough anymore. Yes, I am hostile with that. Foriegners are ok. Ungrateful foriegners know the way home.

Here we go with the big-headed America is the greatest, America will save the world, we are superior stuff again. A bit of humility goes a long way.

For someone who is so strong in defending and honouring his own country, to insult another's homeland like this is pretty poor form.

I can't see how Gil and Helio have been ungrateful in any way. As mentioned before, the actions of Gil in Australia, and of Helio at Indy, were the furthest things from ungrateful I think I've ever seen.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if they were ungrateful of Austin's opinions and hospitality.

[The Moon Monkey]

as far as i can make out from over in the UK, Penske are a bunch of corporate ##### sucking Marlboro's $$$$ De Ferran and Castroneves should quit Penske straight away!!!!

Sorry had to edit this one. An interesting (if somewhat ribald) analysis on the state of true American Racing.

AMoffat

[Liz]

Dr. Austin, you disappoint me by turning out to be another one of those Circle Racing Rules And Americans Rule Circle Racing guys. My cousin, who has at least the excuse that she is a blonde from Hollywood where the atmosphere is, shall we say, rarified, also believes that the rest of the world outside America is some kind of theme park. She was hugely disappointed with England, which she expected to be like America, only "quaint". I'm surprised to find this kind of attitude in someone of your age and experience. But then I have heard that some of the United States Senate and House members don't even have passports.....

==============

As far as racing goes--Penske who? Gil who? Helio who? :confused:

[BootsOntheSide]

The reference Austin made about the World Trade Centre was a bit below the belt. The actual death toll from September 11 is now actually below 3000, and by no means were all of those American. In fact, it was the biggest mass murder of Britons since World War 2. The comments Austin has made in his various Penske-themed posts show that he is utterly biased in favour of Americans and their world view. Marlboro US sponsor Penske, they had no say in Roger's driver choice, Roger shrewdly chose two drivers who up to that point had not consistantly had great opportunities to shine, and nurtured them into the stars they are today. Whether they are American, Brazillian, German, Swedish or Zimbabwean is irrelevant. Or at least it should be. Regarding sponsor's insistance on driver lineups, how many NASCAR sponsors are non-American? Are these sponsors insisting on American drivers, or are they simply blind to the existance of over 200 over nations?

The IRL attracts no interest outside the US, in fact nor does oval racing in general. A large number of people in the UK are convinced that CART is oval racing only, and oval racin in itself does not interest many people, whether the drivers are called Gil De Ferran, Sam Hornish Junior, Jeff Gordon or Rusty Wallace, whether the cars are open wheel or stock cars, whether they're high or low power, what country the races are held in, or anything else. To a European palate, oval racing is comparatively unexciting on TV.

CART's growing fanbase in Europe has been down to it offering the best racing in the world, featuring a seriously talented driver lineup from all around the world, on racetracks which require some skill and can't be broken downsimply into mile-oval, superspeedway and high banked oval, the only types of ovals going. CART is not purely an American series anymore- if it was it wouldn't have met such hostility. Penske's departure certainly does not destroy the series, and the management mistakes were made, remember, by Americans, Americans whose aim is to prevent a great series being desroyed into a clique of oval racing being funded by one man trying to put across a large field for his one race. The IRL has stumbled by on a range of CART flops, unknowns and has-beens for a long time. Hornish is certainly good, but otherwise only Brack and Stewart are good enough to challenge the overseas CART drivers (and last I looked, Brack isn't American either). Guys like Cheever moved over when they lost the edge, just as Cheever quit F1 for CART in the early 90s after being outdone in the Arrows F1 team, and realising his best days were behind him. Most of the biggest successes in US open-wheel racing in the last 10 years have at least some European racing background- Villeneuve, Montoya, Emmo, Mansell, Zanardi, Brack, De Ferran, Junquiera, Moreno, Da Matta.... we are talking proven international stars. Even Indy Lights and Toyota Atlantic have had lots of non-US successes, not all of whom have gained the sponsorship to get into CART (remember Philipp Peter?)

Even if it was a true American series, that shouldn't exclude others from taking drives, putting packages together to race in their best opportunity. Britain's premier domestic series is the British Touring Car Championship. This was won by a Brit this year, but by a Swiss in 2000, a Frenchman in 1999, a Swede in 1998, that same Swiss in 1997,and a German in 1996. Yet we don't moan about 'ungrateful foreigners' spoiling 'our' series, we go and enjoy thrilling racing. In fact Jason Plato, this eyar's winner, is a hated figure, most people wanted his French team-mate to win it. In CART the standard of driving is a lot higher now than when Al Junior and Vasser won their titles. Vasser was beaten comfortably in 1997 and 1998 by Zanardi, despite Vasser having 6 years experience compared to Zanardi's one. And Montoya made Vasser look like an incompetant old fogey. Quite what Bryan Herta has done to deserve a drive has never been explained either- the guy is mediocre at best, compare him to Papis in 1999 or the Canadians at Forsythe this year (yes, that's the same Canadians who Austin seems to dislike simply because their sponsor specifies Canadians. I wonder what he makes of Rahal's insistance on an All-American line-up for 2002)

[paulzinho]

Nicely put!!!

The fact that CART guys went and whupped the IRL in their own back yard at Indy this year as well as Montoyas (another CART guy) win last year, speaks volumes for the mediocrity of the IRLs talent. Maybe it can act as a place to shine in rare instances (Brack being the only one) put him on a road course which involves steering in more than one direction and he looks mediocore.

I'm sorry to IRL fans but CART rules. The only thing bringing it down at the moment is poor management but CART have been able to identify this and I am confident in their ability to correct this situation.